Gentlemen,
At some time in the not too distant past, someone did a "breakdown and an-al-ysis" of the Sherman variants made by GHQ. Unfortunately, that item has "slipped off the list" (as far as I can tell).
Time permitting -- would the gentleman (or gentlemen) who did this listing be willing to re-post their work(s)?
I took advantage of the "Ralphie" sale GHQ offered at Christmas time, and have added several packs of Shermans that were not part of my collection at that time. And it got me to thinking -- okay, what do I have... what am I missing... and are there variants that we should reasonably expect to be seeing at some point in the future?
Here is a listing that I've been able to come up with of Shermans that are being made (or have been made, but discontinued / updated) by GHQ:
* * * * *
UK-13 Firefly Sherman V C 17-pdr. -- no longer in GHQ's listings
UK-16 M4A1 Sherman cast hull
UK-17 M4A4 -- no longer in GHQ's listings
UK-57 M4A4 Sherman V
UK-58 Sherman V C "Firefly"
UK-61 Sherman V with "Crab" mine flail
UK-62 Sherman DD amphib. tank with canvas "skirts"
UK-65 Sherman V late war
US-1 M4A3E8 Sherman 76mm
US-6 M4A4 Sherman -- no longer in GHQ's listings
US-15 M4A3 Sherman 105mm -- no longer in GHQ's listings
US-18 Sherman with "Calliope" rocket launcher -- no longer in GHQ's listings
US-22 M4A3E2 "Jumbo" Sherman assault tank
US-23 M4A1 Sherman
US-47 LCM-3 with Sherman
US-50 Sherman accessories - mine roller, dozer blade, "Calliope"
US-72 M-26 Tank Transporter with M4A3 Sherman
US-74 M4A3 Sherman
US-75 M4A4 Sherman 105mm
US-90 M4A1 Sherman
And, just for the sake of "completeness"...
IS-2 Super Sherman 105mm
IS-3 Isherman 75mm
N-123 Sherman with AMX turret - Egyptian use
* * * * *
In advance, thank you for your replies!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
GHQ's Shermans
Moderators: dnichols, GHQ, Mk 1
-
tstockton
- E5
- Posts: 715
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:55 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
GHQ's Shermans
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-
Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Re: GHQ's Shermans
I'm not sure what the "breakdown and an-al-ysis" was that you hope to see re-created, but if I can help clarify the models or some such, I'd be happy to pitch in.tstockton said
At some time in the not too distant past, someone did a "breakdown and an-al-ysis" of the Sherman variants made by GHQ. Unfortunately, that item has "slipped off the list" (as far as I can tell).
Time permitting -- would the gentleman (or gentlemen) who did this listing be willing to re-post their work(s)?
Are you looking for a walk-through of the models now offered by GHQ, with some info on their service/distribution?
Or did you have some other an-al-ysis in mind?
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
-
tstockton
- E5
- Posts: 715
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:55 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
Mk1,
Someone more knowledgable than myself -- okay, so that doesn't narrow it down too much...
-- once posted a note in a thread here, which told a little bit about each of the Sherman models currently made by GHQ -- just a line or two. If I recall correctly, the post had something along the line of why GHQ made a particular model -- first Sherman with such-and-such, a Sherman mainly sent as Lend-Lease, etc. The post also noted that a few "variants" of the Shermans were "missing" (i.e., not made yet by GHQ) and why those models should be made.
At least, that's what I recall... and I'm sticking with my story until proven otherwise!
Also, if I recall correctly -- it was one of the "old timers" here (if I may use that term) -- or should I say, more active "posters" who did it. Mk1, for what it's worth, I'm thinking it was either you or Mobius -- or maybe jb or cama or possibly Ritter? Someone who is both a pretty good modeler / painter and had a pretty good handle on the "real world" Shermans as well. All I remember is, it was a very clear, succinct and informative listing... and I'm sorry I didn't "grab" it the first time through!
Regards,
Tom
Someone more knowledgable than myself -- okay, so that doesn't narrow it down too much...
-- once posted a note in a thread here, which told a little bit about each of the Sherman models currently made by GHQ -- just a line or two. If I recall correctly, the post had something along the line of why GHQ made a particular model -- first Sherman with such-and-such, a Sherman mainly sent as Lend-Lease, etc. The post also noted that a few "variants" of the Shermans were "missing" (i.e., not made yet by GHQ) and why those models should be made.At least, that's what I recall... and I'm sticking with my story until proven otherwise!
Also, if I recall correctly -- it was one of the "old timers" here (if I may use that term) -- or should I say, more active "posters" who did it. Mk1, for what it's worth, I'm thinking it was either you or Mobius -- or maybe jb or cama or possibly Ritter? Someone who is both a pretty good modeler / painter and had a pretty good handle on the "real world" Shermans as well. All I remember is, it was a very clear, succinct and informative listing... and I'm sorry I didn't "grab" it the first time through!
Regards,
Tom
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-
Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
OK.
Might have been me. Don't recall the specific post you refer to, but I do recall posting info on the various marks of Shermans, and the gaps in the GHQ line, on a couple of occasions.
It may seem complicated when seen one-by-one, but once you understand the sequencing its not that hard to understand the Sherman variants. Let's start with an overview:
M4: Hull of welded flat plates. Gasoline powered radial engine.
M4A1: Rounded cast hull. Gasoline powered radial engine.
M4A2: Hull of welded flat plates. Twin diesel engines.
M4A3: Hull of welded flat plates. Gasoline powered purposed-designed tank engine (Ford GAA).
M4A4: Extended-length hull of welded flat plates. Gasoline powered "multi-bank" engine (5 truck engines bolted together).
The M4, M4A1, and M4A3 were used by the US Army. The M4A2 and M4A3 were used by the USMC. The M4A1 and M4A4 were lend-leased to the British in large numbers (others in smaller numbers too). The M4A2 was lend-leased to the Soviets in large numbers.
Mid-war, many Shermans started appearing with welded-on armor plates. Hull side plates covered ammo storage in the sponson (hull side, over the tracks). Turret plates covered a point were the turret armor had been thinned out to make room for the turret traverse mechanism. By late war these mods dissappeared, as the ammo was re-stored into bins in the floor with water/glycol bins (wet stowage) to reduce ammo conflagrations, and new turrets were cast eliminating the thin spot in front of the gunner. The add-on armor was never too popular, as it highlighted where the ammo and gunner were located to enemy aim.
Mid and late war turrets had an improved mantlet (the M34A1), which provided extra armor across the turret front.
Mid war turrets had an extra hatch added to the turret roof, one for the commander, and now one for the loader too.
Late war the M4 and M4A3 hulls received an improved front plate, which eliminated the bulges around the driver and co-driver hatches, and improved overall frontal protection.
Late war turrets had a cupola added to the commander's hatch. The hatch changed from a split, to a single piece design.
Late war a new turret, from the T23 tank, was grafted on to the Sherman hull. This was a larger turret, with better frontal protection. It was used in upgunned Shermans, and was also the basis for the uparmored turret of the Jumbo.
Late war the new HVSS suspension system replaced the earlier VVS suspension system. (This was also a feature from developmental tanks, the T6, T22,, T23, and T25, that was grafted on to the Sherman.)
These mods were done in various combinations, and most can be determined by observation.
So, let's take a walk through the GHQ Shermans in the current catalog, in sequence as they are currently listed, and see what we find:
Starting with the US Army tanks:
US90 M4A1 75mm Sherman: This is an early war variant. Very good choice for the US Army in French North Africa and Sicily in 1942/43. Also present in some numbers in Italy in 1943-45. When the US invaded French North Africa in 1942 there were two versions of the Sherman which the US Army had accepted as "standard": M4 and M4A1. M4 (which GHQ does not make) had a hull composed of flat rolled-plate welded armor, M4A1 had a cast (and rounded) hull. M4A1 was actually the more common version, as production was faster and easier. The turrets had the M34 mantled, which only provided heavy armor in a small rectangle immediately around the gun. The turret had a single large split hatch on top. All of these features are visible distinctions. Not visible is that both M4 and M4A1 used the gasoline-powered Wright Cyclone radial engine.
US23 M4A1 Sherman: This is a 1944 variant. Perfect for US forces in Normandy, or the rest of the ETO campaign, or in Italy in late 1944/45. In mid-1943 the US Army selected the M4A3 as its preferred Sherman, and relegated the M4 and M4A1 to "alternate standard" status. They were still present in pretty large numbers. Army Ordnance made several efforts to upgun the Sherman. The Armored Board rejected most. Finally, the turret of a developmental tank (the T23) with a long 76mm M1A1 gun was grafted on to a Sherman hull, and the ammo storage re-arranged, and the Armored Board accepted the new design. Several versions of up-gunned Shermans were made. The first to be shipped to units was this one -- the M4A1 VVS 76mm (w). It had the standard Sherman suspension (vertical volute springs), the T23 turret, and wet ammo storage (ammo in the hull was in containers surrounded by a water/glycol tank). These tanks were present in England before D-Day, but the unit commanders rejected issuance to the troops in the run-up to the invasion (due to the lack of opportunities to train the tankers, and the fear of logistical shortfalls). After hitting Tigers and Panthers in the boccage, there was an urgent call for upgunning, and a couple hundred of these models were issued from stocks already in the UK in late June / early July. Even though units were supposed to operate only one version of the Sherman (M4, M4A1, or M4A3), these upgunned tanks were sent to any and all units to increase their firepower, and mixed in with other types. They were the only upgunned Shermans during the Normandy campaign, and were still seen in units in ETO through the end of the war. As the M4A1 was "alternate standard" and only a few units in France operated the M4A1 75mm, there was a higher priority given to getting the M4A3 VVS 76mm (w) into the theater, and after that version (not made by GHQ) started arriving in about September of 1944, the rest of the continuing M4A1 76mm production were sent to the US forces in Italy.
US74 M4A3 75mm Sherman: This is a 1944 variant. It was the US Army "standard" Sherman for 1944 production. The M4A3 used the Ford GAA gasoline engine, a purpose-designed tank engine with the best automotive performance of any of the Sherman variants. It had all the upgrades the army wanted from the Tunisian, Sicilian and Italian campaign experiences. It had the same hull as the M4 (welded rolled plate), up-armored with a better front slope in the later war variants, with wet ammo storage (eliminating the need for re-inforcing armor over hull sponson ammo stowage), the improved M34A1 mantlet (with heavy armor spread across the whole mantlet face), and two turret hatches with a commander's vision cupola. This is a good version for 1944/45 campaigning across ETO.
US75 M4A3 (105mm) Sherman: This is also a 1944 variant. All the same comments apply as per the US74 above. The 105mm "assault guns" were issued at a rate of a few per battalion (often parcelled out to the companies) to provide heavier direct-fire support to reduce AT emplacements and dug-in infantry. They also often fired smoke. They were never really available in enough numbers to make up the full TOE for every unit in-theater, so having a couple around without worrying about official TOEs is about right.
US22 M4A3E2 Jumbo: Heavily up-armored "assualt" version of the Sherman. These were mostly purpose-built heavy tanks on the M4A3 Sherman hull (a few convesions were done in-theater), and used in ETO. The armor was heavier than a Tiger I's, up to 7 inches at the thickets point. A few hundred were built. All were built with the 75mm gun. They began appearing in units in the fall of 1944. There were a lot of mobility problems, as the suspension was terribly over-burdened, and I have been told by veterans that they were largely road-bound, but they were still pretty popular. Towards the end of 1944/early 1945, some were up-gunned to 76mm by unit depots. IN fact in January 1945 Patton ordered ALL Jumbos in the 3rd Army to be upgunned (but in the event, only about a hundred and a half were upgunned in total). The GHQ model is an upgunned M4A3E2 76mm. But you can just snip the barrel if you want the more common 75mm version.
US1 M4A3E8 Sherman: The actual proper designation of this tank was M4A3 HVSS 76mm (w), but in development it was the E8, and it was called the E8 (or "easy-8") by troopers throughout its service life. It was the last, and ultimate, version of the Sherman in US Army service. It is appropriate for ETO during the Bulge and after, and for Korea battles. The Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension (that's what the E8 indicates) was a substantial improvement over the Vertial Volute Spring system of earlier Shermans, in that it supported a notably wider track, and so gave much better flotation. There were a fair number of 76mm Shermans built on M4A3 VVS hulls (not provided in the GHQ catalog), and also a quantity of 75mm Shermans built on the M4A3 HVSS hull (also not modeled by GHQ), leaving some simple kit-bashing options. The M4A3 HVSS 76mm was never available in sufficient numbers to fully equip units during the ETO campaign, and so would have been scattered about (as the M4A1 76mm would, too). Some commanders consolidated their 76mm Shermans into one platoon per company, others spread them around at a rate of 1 or 2 per platoon. Commanders seemed more likely to consolidate their HVSS 76mm's if they got enough of them, as during the winter of 1944/45 the HVSS had notably different (better) mobility than VVS Shermans, and mixed platoons did not operate well.
US50 Sherman Accessories: According to the catalog there is one Sherman included. I do not have this pack, so I am going by the catalog and the picture. The Sherman in the picture appears to be either a mid-late M4 or M4A3. The two would be visually indistinguishable, the difference being the engine (Wright Cyclone radial or Ford GAA). The hull is late production, with improved front plate. The turret has the M34A1 mantlet, but does not have a commander's vision cupola (as the M4A3 75mm model does). This would actually have been a MORE common turret in mid-1944 usage than the turret on the US74 model.
How's that for a start?
I'll try to get to the Shermans in the British Tanks listing in a subsiquent post (in a little while).
Might have been me. Don't recall the specific post you refer to, but I do recall posting info on the various marks of Shermans, and the gaps in the GHQ line, on a couple of occasions.
It may seem complicated when seen one-by-one, but once you understand the sequencing its not that hard to understand the Sherman variants. Let's start with an overview:
M4: Hull of welded flat plates. Gasoline powered radial engine.
M4A1: Rounded cast hull. Gasoline powered radial engine.
M4A2: Hull of welded flat plates. Twin diesel engines.
M4A3: Hull of welded flat plates. Gasoline powered purposed-designed tank engine (Ford GAA).
M4A4: Extended-length hull of welded flat plates. Gasoline powered "multi-bank" engine (5 truck engines bolted together).
The M4, M4A1, and M4A3 were used by the US Army. The M4A2 and M4A3 were used by the USMC. The M4A1 and M4A4 were lend-leased to the British in large numbers (others in smaller numbers too). The M4A2 was lend-leased to the Soviets in large numbers.
Mid-war, many Shermans started appearing with welded-on armor plates. Hull side plates covered ammo storage in the sponson (hull side, over the tracks). Turret plates covered a point were the turret armor had been thinned out to make room for the turret traverse mechanism. By late war these mods dissappeared, as the ammo was re-stored into bins in the floor with water/glycol bins (wet stowage) to reduce ammo conflagrations, and new turrets were cast eliminating the thin spot in front of the gunner. The add-on armor was never too popular, as it highlighted where the ammo and gunner were located to enemy aim.
Mid and late war turrets had an improved mantlet (the M34A1), which provided extra armor across the turret front.
Mid war turrets had an extra hatch added to the turret roof, one for the commander, and now one for the loader too.
Late war the M4 and M4A3 hulls received an improved front plate, which eliminated the bulges around the driver and co-driver hatches, and improved overall frontal protection.
Late war turrets had a cupola added to the commander's hatch. The hatch changed from a split, to a single piece design.
Late war a new turret, from the T23 tank, was grafted on to the Sherman hull. This was a larger turret, with better frontal protection. It was used in upgunned Shermans, and was also the basis for the uparmored turret of the Jumbo.
Late war the new HVSS suspension system replaced the earlier VVS suspension system. (This was also a feature from developmental tanks, the T6, T22,, T23, and T25, that was grafted on to the Sherman.)
These mods were done in various combinations, and most can be determined by observation.
So, let's take a walk through the GHQ Shermans in the current catalog, in sequence as they are currently listed, and see what we find:
Starting with the US Army tanks:
US90 M4A1 75mm Sherman: This is an early war variant. Very good choice for the US Army in French North Africa and Sicily in 1942/43. Also present in some numbers in Italy in 1943-45. When the US invaded French North Africa in 1942 there were two versions of the Sherman which the US Army had accepted as "standard": M4 and M4A1. M4 (which GHQ does not make) had a hull composed of flat rolled-plate welded armor, M4A1 had a cast (and rounded) hull. M4A1 was actually the more common version, as production was faster and easier. The turrets had the M34 mantled, which only provided heavy armor in a small rectangle immediately around the gun. The turret had a single large split hatch on top. All of these features are visible distinctions. Not visible is that both M4 and M4A1 used the gasoline-powered Wright Cyclone radial engine.
US23 M4A1 Sherman: This is a 1944 variant. Perfect for US forces in Normandy, or the rest of the ETO campaign, or in Italy in late 1944/45. In mid-1943 the US Army selected the M4A3 as its preferred Sherman, and relegated the M4 and M4A1 to "alternate standard" status. They were still present in pretty large numbers. Army Ordnance made several efforts to upgun the Sherman. The Armored Board rejected most. Finally, the turret of a developmental tank (the T23) with a long 76mm M1A1 gun was grafted on to a Sherman hull, and the ammo storage re-arranged, and the Armored Board accepted the new design. Several versions of up-gunned Shermans were made. The first to be shipped to units was this one -- the M4A1 VVS 76mm (w). It had the standard Sherman suspension (vertical volute springs), the T23 turret, and wet ammo storage (ammo in the hull was in containers surrounded by a water/glycol tank). These tanks were present in England before D-Day, but the unit commanders rejected issuance to the troops in the run-up to the invasion (due to the lack of opportunities to train the tankers, and the fear of logistical shortfalls). After hitting Tigers and Panthers in the boccage, there was an urgent call for upgunning, and a couple hundred of these models were issued from stocks already in the UK in late June / early July. Even though units were supposed to operate only one version of the Sherman (M4, M4A1, or M4A3), these upgunned tanks were sent to any and all units to increase their firepower, and mixed in with other types. They were the only upgunned Shermans during the Normandy campaign, and were still seen in units in ETO through the end of the war. As the M4A1 was "alternate standard" and only a few units in France operated the M4A1 75mm, there was a higher priority given to getting the M4A3 VVS 76mm (w) into the theater, and after that version (not made by GHQ) started arriving in about September of 1944, the rest of the continuing M4A1 76mm production were sent to the US forces in Italy.
US74 M4A3 75mm Sherman: This is a 1944 variant. It was the US Army "standard" Sherman for 1944 production. The M4A3 used the Ford GAA gasoline engine, a purpose-designed tank engine with the best automotive performance of any of the Sherman variants. It had all the upgrades the army wanted from the Tunisian, Sicilian and Italian campaign experiences. It had the same hull as the M4 (welded rolled plate), up-armored with a better front slope in the later war variants, with wet ammo storage (eliminating the need for re-inforcing armor over hull sponson ammo stowage), the improved M34A1 mantlet (with heavy armor spread across the whole mantlet face), and two turret hatches with a commander's vision cupola. This is a good version for 1944/45 campaigning across ETO.
US75 M4A3 (105mm) Sherman: This is also a 1944 variant. All the same comments apply as per the US74 above. The 105mm "assault guns" were issued at a rate of a few per battalion (often parcelled out to the companies) to provide heavier direct-fire support to reduce AT emplacements and dug-in infantry. They also often fired smoke. They were never really available in enough numbers to make up the full TOE for every unit in-theater, so having a couple around without worrying about official TOEs is about right.
US22 M4A3E2 Jumbo: Heavily up-armored "assualt" version of the Sherman. These were mostly purpose-built heavy tanks on the M4A3 Sherman hull (a few convesions were done in-theater), and used in ETO. The armor was heavier than a Tiger I's, up to 7 inches at the thickets point. A few hundred were built. All were built with the 75mm gun. They began appearing in units in the fall of 1944. There were a lot of mobility problems, as the suspension was terribly over-burdened, and I have been told by veterans that they were largely road-bound, but they were still pretty popular. Towards the end of 1944/early 1945, some were up-gunned to 76mm by unit depots. IN fact in January 1945 Patton ordered ALL Jumbos in the 3rd Army to be upgunned (but in the event, only about a hundred and a half were upgunned in total). The GHQ model is an upgunned M4A3E2 76mm. But you can just snip the barrel if you want the more common 75mm version.
US1 M4A3E8 Sherman: The actual proper designation of this tank was M4A3 HVSS 76mm (w), but in development it was the E8, and it was called the E8 (or "easy-8") by troopers throughout its service life. It was the last, and ultimate, version of the Sherman in US Army service. It is appropriate for ETO during the Bulge and after, and for Korea battles. The Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension (that's what the E8 indicates) was a substantial improvement over the Vertial Volute Spring system of earlier Shermans, in that it supported a notably wider track, and so gave much better flotation. There were a fair number of 76mm Shermans built on M4A3 VVS hulls (not provided in the GHQ catalog), and also a quantity of 75mm Shermans built on the M4A3 HVSS hull (also not modeled by GHQ), leaving some simple kit-bashing options. The M4A3 HVSS 76mm was never available in sufficient numbers to fully equip units during the ETO campaign, and so would have been scattered about (as the M4A1 76mm would, too). Some commanders consolidated their 76mm Shermans into one platoon per company, others spread them around at a rate of 1 or 2 per platoon. Commanders seemed more likely to consolidate their HVSS 76mm's if they got enough of them, as during the winter of 1944/45 the HVSS had notably different (better) mobility than VVS Shermans, and mixed platoons did not operate well.
US50 Sherman Accessories: According to the catalog there is one Sherman included. I do not have this pack, so I am going by the catalog and the picture. The Sherman in the picture appears to be either a mid-late M4 or M4A3. The two would be visually indistinguishable, the difference being the engine (Wright Cyclone radial or Ford GAA). The hull is late production, with improved front plate. The turret has the M34A1 mantlet, but does not have a commander's vision cupola (as the M4A3 75mm model does). This would actually have been a MORE common turret in mid-1944 usage than the turret on the US74 model.
How's that for a start?
I'll try to get to the Shermans in the British Tanks listing in a subsiquent post (in a little while).
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
-
tstockton
- E5
- Posts: 715
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:55 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Contact:
cama, Mk 1,
Outstanding! That's exactly what I was talking about!!
This time I'll remember to save these posts for "future reference" -- maybe I need to get them posted on my website, too!
Thanks for these -- and for any upcoming posts!!
Regards,
Tom
Outstanding! That's exactly what I was talking about!!
This time I'll remember to save these posts for "future reference" -- maybe I need to get them posted on my website, too!
Thanks for these -- and for any upcoming posts!!
Regards,
Tom
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"