MicroArmor-The Game: Buildings/built-up areas
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ftm2kleszics
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MicroArmor-The Game: Buildings/built-up areas
I love MATG, both WW2 and Modern. However, I do have a question on buildings and built up areas. If a unit is in a building and it comes under fire, how do you resolve the combat? Do you use the defence of the unit or the building? If it is the structure, what is its defence value? If the unit is in a heavy structure (bunker, heavy emplacement, etc.) is the unit eliminated with the first elimination, or do they survive until the structure falls? Request any suggestions on this matter. Pete.
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RedLeif
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Hi,
I understand why you may be confused, for neither the Terrain section, nor the Spotting or Combat sections explain this very clearly.
Look at the terrain effects chart. There is a column labeled "(target in this terrain) FIRING UNIT COHESION AND CRT DIE ROLL EFFECT" This column shows the modifiers to both the attackers cohesion die roll and the CRT die roll for the various terrain types the defender could be in. Next to that is the column labeled "IS LINE OF SIGHT BLOCKED?". Finally, at the bottom of the chart are some VERY important notes which are also not explained very well in the rules themselves.
An example of play should help illustrate how these all work though.
So lets say we have a Marder II ATG battery (1 stand) positioned in Light Building terrain and a company (4 stands) of Shermans, all in clear terrain, trying to attack it.
First Issue: Line of Sight and Spotting. Since the Light Building terrain blocks line of sight and is concealing terrain (per Terrain Effects Chart), the Sherman stands can not shoot at the Marder until it fires first or until an American stand is adjacent to it (and can thus spot it).
Second Issue: Terrain Modifiers. So for illustration sake we will say the German player fires at a Sherman and gets a 'D' combat result on one of the Shermans. The act of firing exposes the Marder and the American tanks can now target it.
Now the American player (with a force cohesion of 15) attacks the Marder with all four Shermans. The D'ed Sherman checks its cohesion. It's modifier to the cohesion roll is +3 (because the Marder fired, it negates the cohesion modifier for the Light Building terrain). The American player rolls a 13, 13+3 is 16 so the D'ed Sherman fails its cohesion test. It is marked with a red bead to show that it fired for the turn.
The other three Shermans have no cohesion modifier to their rolls, as they are not effected by any combat results and the as described before the terrain modifier is negated because the Marder fired. The three shermans roll 8, 3, and 17. So the one that rolled a 17 failed to fire in an organized or effective way is marked with a red bead. The player then proceeds with the two CRT rolls.
Now the terrain does come into play because the CRT rolls are not affected by the act of the Marder firing and revealing itself. The Light Building terrain shows that the Shermans must add +2 to their CRT die rolls while firing at the Marder in the buildings. One of the Shermans is only 4" inches away while the other is 8" away thus incurring a +1 to the CRT roll for range as well. So the further Sherman is chosen to roll first. The Combat Differential column used turns out to be the +5 column. So the first roll is a 7. 7+3 is 10 which yields a "D" result. Now the second, closer sherman is rolled for, resulting in a 10 (unlucky). 10+2 = 12 which yields an "(S)" result. Since the Marder does not yet have an "S" result, the S-paren is applied as an "S" result. Had the second roll been any lower the Marder would have been eliminated.
So the Marder battery survived but is both disorganized and suppressed. One of the American platoons is disorganized and the other three are fine. These last two shermans are marked with red beads and its the German players turn to start a new attack somewhere else.
If the Marder had been in an improved position instead of light buildings it could have been spotted by the shermans, as improved positions don't block line of sight, but improved positions are still concealing terrain. This means the attacker would add the cohesion modifier for the terrain the defender is in, if he chose to attack before the defender fires from that position.
Hope this helped. If you still have questions please ask.
RedLeif
I understand why you may be confused, for neither the Terrain section, nor the Spotting or Combat sections explain this very clearly.
Look at the terrain effects chart. There is a column labeled "(target in this terrain) FIRING UNIT COHESION AND CRT DIE ROLL EFFECT" This column shows the modifiers to both the attackers cohesion die roll and the CRT die roll for the various terrain types the defender could be in. Next to that is the column labeled "IS LINE OF SIGHT BLOCKED?". Finally, at the bottom of the chart are some VERY important notes which are also not explained very well in the rules themselves.
An example of play should help illustrate how these all work though.
So lets say we have a Marder II ATG battery (1 stand) positioned in Light Building terrain and a company (4 stands) of Shermans, all in clear terrain, trying to attack it.
First Issue: Line of Sight and Spotting. Since the Light Building terrain blocks line of sight and is concealing terrain (per Terrain Effects Chart), the Sherman stands can not shoot at the Marder until it fires first or until an American stand is adjacent to it (and can thus spot it).
Second Issue: Terrain Modifiers. So for illustration sake we will say the German player fires at a Sherman and gets a 'D' combat result on one of the Shermans. The act of firing exposes the Marder and the American tanks can now target it.
Now the American player (with a force cohesion of 15) attacks the Marder with all four Shermans. The D'ed Sherman checks its cohesion. It's modifier to the cohesion roll is +3 (because the Marder fired, it negates the cohesion modifier for the Light Building terrain). The American player rolls a 13, 13+3 is 16 so the D'ed Sherman fails its cohesion test. It is marked with a red bead to show that it fired for the turn.
The other three Shermans have no cohesion modifier to their rolls, as they are not effected by any combat results and the as described before the terrain modifier is negated because the Marder fired. The three shermans roll 8, 3, and 17. So the one that rolled a 17 failed to fire in an organized or effective way is marked with a red bead. The player then proceeds with the two CRT rolls.
Now the terrain does come into play because the CRT rolls are not affected by the act of the Marder firing and revealing itself. The Light Building terrain shows that the Shermans must add +2 to their CRT die rolls while firing at the Marder in the buildings. One of the Shermans is only 4" inches away while the other is 8" away thus incurring a +1 to the CRT roll for range as well. So the further Sherman is chosen to roll first. The Combat Differential column used turns out to be the +5 column. So the first roll is a 7. 7+3 is 10 which yields a "D" result. Now the second, closer sherman is rolled for, resulting in a 10 (unlucky). 10+2 = 12 which yields an "(S)" result. Since the Marder does not yet have an "S" result, the S-paren is applied as an "S" result. Had the second roll been any lower the Marder would have been eliminated.
So the Marder battery survived but is both disorganized and suppressed. One of the American platoons is disorganized and the other three are fine. These last two shermans are marked with red beads and its the German players turn to start a new attack somewhere else.
If the Marder had been in an improved position instead of light buildings it could have been spotted by the shermans, as improved positions don't block line of sight, but improved positions are still concealing terrain. This means the attacker would add the cohesion modifier for the terrain the defender is in, if he chose to attack before the defender fires from that position.
Hope this helped. If you still have questions please ask.
RedLeif
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Firefight
- Posts: 51
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- Location: Oklahoma
To add onto my previous post, also see rule10.0 on page 20 of the MATG MODERN rule book. This section clarifies, to some degree, line of sight (LOS) within blocking terrain. In short, LOS cannot pass through more than 1/4" of blocking terrain. You will find the reference to a "unit firing from blocking terrain is considered in clear terrain" REMOVED. Thus, a unit "deep" inside of blocking terrain (woods, built up areas, etc) could not fire out at a target. The firing unit would have to be within 1/4" of the edge of the terrain feature (this makes realstic sense and backs up an email I received from the late author when I asked a similar question years ago about MATG WW2).
Personally, I would apply the clarified LOS rule to MATG WW2.
What Red Leif posted is still accurate regarding cohesion and CRT modifiers.
Mitch
Personally, I would apply the clarified LOS rule to MATG WW2.
What Red Leif posted is still accurate regarding cohesion and CRT modifiers.
Mitch
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RedLeif
- E5
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I made one error in my explanation.
First Issue: Line of Sight and Spotting. The Chart shows that 'Light Building terrain' blocks line of sight and is 'concealing terrain' (per Terrain Effects Chart). The Sherman stands can target the Marder because it is at the edge of the terrain (and thus can see the Shermans too). If the German player had positioned it within a light building terrain region such that it was not on the edge of the terrain, neither player could target the other as LOS would be blocked.
Second Issue: Terrain Modifiers. So for illustration sake we will say the German player fires at a Sherman and gets a 'D' combat result on one of the Shermans. The act of firing exposes the Marder, negating the cohesion modifier for any attackers.
Now the American player (with a force cohesion of 15) attacks the Marder with all four Shermans. The D'ed Sherman checks its cohesion. It's modifier to the cohesion roll is +3 due to the 'D' combat result. Because the Marder fired, it loses the +2 cohesion modifier for the Light Building terrain. The American player rolls a 13, 13+3 is 16 so the D'ed Sherman fails its cohesion test. It is marked with a red bead ( or marker) to show that it fired for the turn.
The other three Shermans have no cohesion modifier to their rolls, as they are not effected by any combat results and the as described before the terrain cohesion modifier is negated because the Marder fired. The three shermans roll 8, 3, and 17. So the one that rolled a 17 failed to fire in an organized or effective way is marked with a red bead. The player then proceeds with the two CRT rolls.
Now the terrain does come into play because the CRT rolls are not affected by the act of the Marder firing and revealing itself. The Light Building terrain shows that the Shermans must add +2 to their CRT die rolls while firing at the Marder in the buildings. One of the Shermans is only 4" inches away while the other is 8" away thus incurring a +1 to the CRT roll for range as well. So the further Sherman is chosen to roll first. The Combat Differential column used turns out to be the +5 column. So the first roll is a 7. 7+3 is 10 which yields a "D" result. Now the second, closer sherman is rolled for, resulting in a 10 (unlucky). 10+2 = 12 which yields an "(S)" result (pronounced 'S Paren'). Since the Marder does not yet have an "S" result, the S-paren is applied as an "S" result. Had the second roll been any lower the Marder would have been eliminated.
So the Marder battery survived but is both disorganized and suppressed. One of the American platoons is disorganized and the other three are fine. These last two shermans are marked with red beads and its the German players turn to start a new attack somewhere else.
If the American had gone first, the Shermans would have had to add +2 to each of their cohesion rolls to see if they fired effectively or not. Using the numbers from above, 13, 8, 3, and 17, the US player would have had 3 combat events to resolve on the Marder instead of two. The attacker would have the same +2 CRT modifier due to the terrain. It was likely that the Marder would have been eliminated before it could return fire.
If the Marder had been in an improved position instead of light buildings it could have been spotted by the shermans, as above, but improved positions are still concealing terrain. This means the attacker would add the cohesion modifier for the terrain the defender is in, if he chose to attack before the defender fires from that position.
And Mitch is spot on about rule 6.1.5. It is one of the most important of the game and is often not understood or remembered as folks try out their first few combats or games.
Again, if you still have questions, please ask.
Regards,
Red Leif
First Issue: Line of Sight and Spotting. The Chart shows that 'Light Building terrain' blocks line of sight and is 'concealing terrain' (per Terrain Effects Chart). The Sherman stands can target the Marder because it is at the edge of the terrain (and thus can see the Shermans too). If the German player had positioned it within a light building terrain region such that it was not on the edge of the terrain, neither player could target the other as LOS would be blocked.
Second Issue: Terrain Modifiers. So for illustration sake we will say the German player fires at a Sherman and gets a 'D' combat result on one of the Shermans. The act of firing exposes the Marder, negating the cohesion modifier for any attackers.
Now the American player (with a force cohesion of 15) attacks the Marder with all four Shermans. The D'ed Sherman checks its cohesion. It's modifier to the cohesion roll is +3 due to the 'D' combat result. Because the Marder fired, it loses the +2 cohesion modifier for the Light Building terrain. The American player rolls a 13, 13+3 is 16 so the D'ed Sherman fails its cohesion test. It is marked with a red bead ( or marker) to show that it fired for the turn.
The other three Shermans have no cohesion modifier to their rolls, as they are not effected by any combat results and the as described before the terrain cohesion modifier is negated because the Marder fired. The three shermans roll 8, 3, and 17. So the one that rolled a 17 failed to fire in an organized or effective way is marked with a red bead. The player then proceeds with the two CRT rolls.
Now the terrain does come into play because the CRT rolls are not affected by the act of the Marder firing and revealing itself. The Light Building terrain shows that the Shermans must add +2 to their CRT die rolls while firing at the Marder in the buildings. One of the Shermans is only 4" inches away while the other is 8" away thus incurring a +1 to the CRT roll for range as well. So the further Sherman is chosen to roll first. The Combat Differential column used turns out to be the +5 column. So the first roll is a 7. 7+3 is 10 which yields a "D" result. Now the second, closer sherman is rolled for, resulting in a 10 (unlucky). 10+2 = 12 which yields an "(S)" result (pronounced 'S Paren'). Since the Marder does not yet have an "S" result, the S-paren is applied as an "S" result. Had the second roll been any lower the Marder would have been eliminated.
So the Marder battery survived but is both disorganized and suppressed. One of the American platoons is disorganized and the other three are fine. These last two shermans are marked with red beads and its the German players turn to start a new attack somewhere else.
If the American had gone first, the Shermans would have had to add +2 to each of their cohesion rolls to see if they fired effectively or not. Using the numbers from above, 13, 8, 3, and 17, the US player would have had 3 combat events to resolve on the Marder instead of two. The attacker would have the same +2 CRT modifier due to the terrain. It was likely that the Marder would have been eliminated before it could return fire.
If the Marder had been in an improved position instead of light buildings it could have been spotted by the shermans, as above, but improved positions are still concealing terrain. This means the attacker would add the cohesion modifier for the terrain the defender is in, if he chose to attack before the defender fires from that position.
And Mitch is spot on about rule 6.1.5. It is one of the most important of the game and is often not understood or remembered as folks try out their first few combats or games.
Again, if you still have questions, please ask.
Regards,
Red Leif
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ftm2kleszics
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- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:32 am
- Location: Smithville Flats, N.Y.
GHQ MATG Buildings/ Built-up areas
I thank everyone for their input 
. I still have the one question: how do you destoy buildings? This is a problem when one is shelling or bombing a built-up area. What is the procedure for this particular form of attack? What defense is a building? Pete.
. I still have the one question: how do you destoy buildings? This is a problem when one is shelling or bombing a built-up area. What is the procedure for this particular form of attack? What defense is a building? Pete.-
RedLeif
- E5
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- Location: Boise, ID
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Sorry I didn't get to that. Please consider the following "optional" rules.
Buildings
If artillery fire or bombing mission airstrikes land in building terrain features it may eliminate or reduce those areas to rubble.
1. As the Light building terrain represents mostly wooden buildings these will burn down and be eliminated over time. Each time an artillery impact lands in light buildings conduct an attack on the buildings with the HE firepower of the artillery against a defense value of 4. On the second attack place a smoke marker on the location for the duration of the game. On the second ‘E’ result the terrain becomes rough terrain 1, the smoke stays.
2 Medium buildings represent a mixture of wood residential and stronger light commercial buildings of only a few stories height. Each time artillery or airstrikes land in medium buildings conduct an attack on the buildings with the HE firepower of the artillery against a defense value of 5 for the buildings. On the 3rd attack place a smoke marker on the location. On the 3rd ‘E’ result the location converts to rubble and the smoke marker is removed.
3 Heavy Buildings represent dense urban regions or heavy commercial districts, often with tall multistory structures built with heavy or reinforced materials. Each time artillery or airstrikes land in Heavy buildings conduct an attack on the buildings with the HE firepower of the artillery against a defense value of 6 for the buildings. On the 5th ‘E’ result the location converts to rubble.
4 All buildings ignore CRT results other than ‘E’.
just some thoughts. you can go more crazy if you want to but as a friend is fond of reminding me "it's not ASL, Leif"
RedLeif
Buildings
If artillery fire or bombing mission airstrikes land in building terrain features it may eliminate or reduce those areas to rubble.
1. As the Light building terrain represents mostly wooden buildings these will burn down and be eliminated over time. Each time an artillery impact lands in light buildings conduct an attack on the buildings with the HE firepower of the artillery against a defense value of 4. On the second attack place a smoke marker on the location for the duration of the game. On the second ‘E’ result the terrain becomes rough terrain 1, the smoke stays.
2 Medium buildings represent a mixture of wood residential and stronger light commercial buildings of only a few stories height. Each time artillery or airstrikes land in medium buildings conduct an attack on the buildings with the HE firepower of the artillery against a defense value of 5 for the buildings. On the 3rd attack place a smoke marker on the location. On the 3rd ‘E’ result the location converts to rubble and the smoke marker is removed.
3 Heavy Buildings represent dense urban regions or heavy commercial districts, often with tall multistory structures built with heavy or reinforced materials. Each time artillery or airstrikes land in Heavy buildings conduct an attack on the buildings with the HE firepower of the artillery against a defense value of 6 for the buildings. On the 5th ‘E’ result the location converts to rubble.
4 All buildings ignore CRT results other than ‘E’.
just some thoughts. you can go more crazy if you want to but as a friend is fond of reminding me "it's not ASL, Leif"
RedLeif
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ftm2kleszics
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:32 am
- Location: Smithville Flats, N.Y.
Buildings/ Buily-up Areas
Thanks for the input! This was what i was looking for. Pete.
"In Flandern reitet der Tot." [i]Totentanzlied.[/i]
This was what i was looking for. Pete."In Flandern reitet der Tot." [i]Totentanzlied.[/i]