Ukrainian Army

[thetourist]

I am thinking about what models to use for the Ukrainian Ground Forces. I know they primarily use the T-64, though most seem to be heavily modified. Almost like the T-80U model by GHQ. They also use an equal number of BMP 1 and 2 IFV's. Any other ideas would be welcome.

Thanks!

[sultanbev]

Armoured and Mech Brigades use 122mm 2S-1, 120mm mortars towed by MT-LB or trucks, BRM-1 and BRDM-2 recce, Sa-13, Sa-8B;152mm 2S-19 and 2S-3; Bm-21-40; BTR-70, BTR-80, 2S-6 Tunguska or ZSU-23-4, BTS-5B T-72 ARV, T-64BV, AT-4 Spigot.

Corps support includes 152mm D20, 122mm D30, 100mm MT12, BRDM-2/Spandrel, MT-LB+ AT-6 Spiral, BM-27-12 Urugan, Mil-8 Hip-C, Mil-24P Hind E/F, Sa-11 Buk, Sa-15 TOr, Sa-17 Buk-M2E Grizzly.
Army support includes BM-30-12 Smerch, SS-21, 152mm 2S-5, 203mm 2S-7.

Air Mobile brigades have BTR-80, BTR-4E, 2S-9 Noma, ZU-23-2, UAZ Jeep+ HMG

Airborne brigades have BMD-2, BMD-1, 2S-9, BTR-D, ZU-23-2, BM-21-12 9P125

See MicroMark lists RR56M, RR57M, RR58M, RR59M, RR60M for full details of TO&E.

Mark

[thetourist]

Thanks for the reply cama! I was reading that the Ukrainians don't use their T-72's much because they don't have the ability to manufacture parts for them. The T-64 factories are in the Ukraine so they have been almost exclusively fielding them. It's possible my source is woefully out of date.

[Mk 1]

The T-80 was a major modernization of the T-64.

The T-90 was a modernization of the T-72.

The T-64 and T-80 were designed and built in Harkiv (also transliterated as Kharkiv or Kharkov -- a sight of several big WW2 battles) in Ukraine.

The T-72 and T-90 were designed and built in Nizhni Tagil (in the Ural mountains of Russia).

After the collapse of the Soviet Union the Russian Army retained pretty much all of their first-rate equipment for themselves, and allowed the second and third-rate equipment stockpiled in so many depots to be taken over by the countries in which the depots were located. Russia continued production and development of the T-72 line, as they had the factory and development team for that tank family. They stopped development of the T-64 / T-80 line, as they no longer had the factory to build them, and scheduled those in service for eventual retirement. This led directly to the T-90, a modernized and re-branded T-72, as Russia needed a tank as modern as the T-80s they had in service but could no longer support. When last I heard (about 10 years ago) only 2 or 3 regiments of T-80s remained in service in the Russian Army, and there were already 2 regiments of T-90s in service, with that being the only tank in production from both families.

Ukraine focused on the T-64. They had a large enough stockpile of tanks and spare parts that it was economical for them. They could have produced the T-80, but without export orders it was pretty costly to keep the line going, and they did not have any plans to invest large sums in creating a large and modern tank force of their own. Also the T-80, which had a gas-turbine engine, was not as economical to operate as the T-64 with it's diesel engine. Since the formation of Ukraine and it's adoption of the T-64, they have done some retro-fits to upgrade and modernize the old tanks (most are more than 30 years old).

As to the organization of units ... I have little idea. But while I can't say one way or the other on Sultanbev's lists, I would observe that most of the kit he describes is 1970/80s era stuff. Other than MBTs it is seldom economical to keep equipment that is that old in service in any large numbers. Scavenging spares can only take you so far, and once you run out of spares you find it is far more economical to buy a new vehicle than to try to get spare parts custom-made for a vehicle that has been out of production for decades. Now, if you are really only equipping a barracks-and-depot force, then yes, those are the items you'll keep on your forces roster. But when the time comes to actually roll-out, well you'll be commandeering every vehicle in the neighborhood.

Just some ponderings ...

[Noble713]

The Separatists got an IS-3 underway, but I don't think it ever saw combat before it was captured by the Ukrainians and shipped back to ....Kiev(?) to rejoin a museum. Lots of pics of it on Tank-net.

Beyond that, the Ukrainians have been making heavy use of civilian passenger buses to motorize their volunteer battalions, occasionally with disastrous consequences when they've been caught in ambushes.

Overall though, their force structure and logistics are in such chaos that pretty much anything sultanbev listed could probably be fielded simultaneously regardless of the notional brigade formation type (although it's still a good guideline).

EDIT: Forgot to add that some of Ukraine's domestically-produced BTR-4's have seen combat. I don't think GHQ makes those....

[Waddell]

Just a couple of observations...

1. Given the recent news we'll be able to see how the Ukrainian Army and Russian Army fare against each other given that they now seem to be in combat.

2. Wasn't there an internet article sometime ago showing a former Soviet tank park outside of Kiev with several hundred T-80's slowly rusting in it? Wonder whatever became of those...

[Waddell]

Thanks for the video link. Is it just me or was that a lot of air defense for that small of a column? Seemed like every other vehicle was an ada gun or launcher.

[RedLeif]

Cama - that Kharkiv 'park' link was amazing. All those tanks and engines just rusting away. Stunning.

You might try putting GHQ's T-90 turret on a T-72 chassis. The T-90 has the closest look to K-5 ERA of any of the modern tanks from GHQ IMHO.


Thanks for sharing