Brigade Combat Teams, etc

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:52 am

Thanks, Waddell,

I do use the internet extensively, but sometimes, someone with personal knowledge that is reasonably up-to-date provides a quicker and more accurate answer.

paul · Post by **paul** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:02 am

Waddell,

Did the 24th ID, in FT. Stewart, get moved and part deactivated?

Regards,

Paul

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:37 am

Ah, Paul, you brought up Carter, which brought up memories of running on condemned track, broken latrines, and just not enough money to be an Army or pay our troops. Remember the Germans taking care packages to our troops in 1978? And here we are again. We have misused our troops and misspent our resources, and now all those guys who used to haunt the Plaza of the Americas at U Know Where are in charge. We have met the enemy and he is us.

paul · Post by **paul** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:06 am

I fear for the direction this country is going in. Most people only care about themselves and it shows. Gone is the sacrifice for others. I cannot imagine this generation in the landing craft heading towards Omaha and Utah beach. Most would never have boarded the vessel.

Waddell · Post by **Waddell** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:42 am

Paul, so far as I know the 24th was deactivated in 2006. There was a brief flirtation with brigade combat teams but based on what I'm seeing the divisions appear to be pre-eminent again. The Russians are also reforming divisions as seen in the recent reformation of the 4th Tank Division and a Mechanized Division near Moscow.

Begemot · Post by **Begemot** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:18 pm

I was in the Army during a good part of the Carter years, '75 through '79. While Carter had his faults the problems that I saw in the Army were there before Carter came into office. If it is appropriate to blame presidents for the military's problems, then those the Army experienced in my time can be laid at the feet of Nixon and Ford. But most of what I saw could more properly be blamed on the Army itself.

I was in Germany from March '76 through March '79, stationed at Baumholder. Panzergator's remembered incident of Germans giving US troops care packages in 1978 is unfamiliar to me. Where did this happen?

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:20 pm

I would not, and did not intend, to lay all difficulties at Carter's feet. His austerity measures did lead to lack of funds for barracks maintenance, spare parts, and critical items like tank track. We ran on condemned track for a while. We couldn't get hydraulic hoses for GOERS in the supply chain, for instance. Or for AVLBs. Had to beg the Air Force hydraulic shop at Rhein Main to MAKE the latter for us (for a bottle of Jack Daniels). It didn't make life in an M60A2 unit any easier. But the Army was still digging out of the effects of the Vietnam War and a pretty significant cultural shift, as well, which didn't have anything to do with Carter. The food parcels occurred in '78 or '79 around Christmas, by which time I was Stateside. I READ about it in papers, It shocked me, which is why I remember it. It had to do with a drastic drop in the exchange rate. Those with unauthorized dependents had trouble dealing with the drop in dollar exchange value because they didn't get benefits that those with dependents authorized did. The exchange rate was the difference

Visited Baumholder friends during the time you were there. Stationed there in the early '80s. It was a great place to be while I was there.

My apologies. Probably not a good subject on this forum, so I'm stopping.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:33 pm

Paul,

Hitler thought the Zoot Suiters of the Swing generation were soft and would fold when it came to a fight, but they buckled down when they had to. I suspect the folks today will be the same if it comes to that. I wouldn't be too concerned. What may get us is the "come-as-you-are war."

paul · Post by **paul** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:53 pm

Panzer,

I hope you are right. Without a doubt we have many people in this country that will sacrifice it all for our country and the rights that we hold dear. Hopefully, this is the majority and not the minority.

StVF101 · Post by **StVF101** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:32 am

Greetings from Baumholder in 2015,

I recently moved from Rhine Ordnance Barracks to Baumholder. It's a nice post, probably the best looking one I've been on of all the bases I've been to. Sadly it's pretty empty, but slowly it looks to be getting built back up. Kind of wish we had been here back when some of the Armor units were still here. Right now the only armor rolling around are the Bundeswehr Artillery School driver's training tanks, Fuchs, the occasional PzH2000 and M270 MLRS.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:59 am

SrVF101,

My wife and I were stationed in Baumholder in the early 80s. We enjoyed our time there very much. My wife worked at the hospital and I was with 2nd BDE. There wasn't much around Baumholder, but you could get ANYwhere from there. Local gasthausen we enjoyed included the Stadtkrug (we bought a '53 Mercedes 300 from the owners) (get the schweinelende mit "homefries" and krauterbutter), Im Haag in Idar Oberstein (again, schweinelende, but get the white radish salat), Kusel Castle - the first time I visited it the tower was not rebuilt). Very beautiful to visit on a fall or a spring day and good food in its gasthaus. Take the back way to Bad Kreuznach in the fall, too. You will pass through Alzey. There is a well-used photo of Creighton Abrams' 37thArmor passing through Alzey. The Nahe wine is excellent, as is the Bitburger bier on tap. Stadtkrug added ribs to their hardwood-smoked meat after we left. If the owner of the place in the 80s is still around, tell her the folks who bought her Mercedes says "hello."

StVF101 · Post by **StVF101** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:10 am

Panzer,

Thanks for the tips, I haven't done much exploring of the immediate Baumholder area as we've been pretty busy since we arrived. One of these days I'll try and get to Stadtkrug and pass the message along. Baumholder is now apart of USAG Rheinland-Pfalz. If you're interested in seeing any pictures of how it is today shoot me a PM with your e-mail and I'll shoot some your way.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:36 am

PM a bit later.

Trier is just an hour or two away. Patton entered Germany across the bridge there. Visit the Porta Negra, one of the gates to the Roman town, and be impressed. You will also find ruins of the Roman baths, an imperial palace that is now a cathedral, and an amphitheater. The marketplace has several excellent gasthausen, especially a place that was once a crypt. Not far on the other side of the Mosel is the town of Echternach, the southern boundary of the German operation for the Battle of the Bulge. The Germans entered Luxembourg through there (and a number of other points) to begin their war. Luxembourg, the US military cemetery is not far. You can see the sights of the Battle of the Bulge easily on a Sunday drive.

Look up La Cachette in a town near Baumholder for another good meal. Chateubriand for two... Kroketten are excellent. Kusel Castle (near the town of Kusel, east over the big hill from Baumholder, is also known as Burg Lichtenburg.

A note about Idar Oberstein - when we were there, the river had not been covered over by the highway through town. Be sure to see the church built into the hillside. The legend is that the lord returned from a war to find his wife had been unfaithful. He threw her over the side of the castle wall on top of the hill. To atone for his sin, he had to build a church where his wife fell.

In one nearby town (I forget the name), you will pass through the dragon's teeth of the Siegfried line. In most places, they are too much trouble to remove, so they just build the roads over them, the way combat engineers did in WWII. Lots of schnecken on them, if you're inclined and know what you're doing (we weren't). Enjoy every moment. I miss it to this day.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:39 pm

Noble713,

1. It was only a rant, as I stated at the end of the entry. It was the visceral reaction to a lifetime of adapting and integrating changes and sometimes, at my age, I get weary of the continuous reduction of capability and the misuse of good American servicemen. My service friends have all traded in their RAM for ROM, and I understand why, but I keep trying. My entry was not a reasoned, rational argument of doctrine or equipment needs. Just a tantrum. However, following is my response to your more studied entry...

2. Wheels vs. Tracks. Perhaps we think about this from different perspectives. Marines think about tanks differently. Tanks are there to support Marines in infantry combat, and the apportionment of tanks is so reflected - a platoon of tanks to a battalion of infantry, if I'm not mistaken. An armor-heavy task force probably isn't something you think about much. My reaction to wheeled combat vehicles is "not enough armor, not enough gun, less maneuverability." Sixty miles an hour over roads and through towns over which Russian arty has made a pass is for tracks, not wheels. Limited cross-country. Turning is an issue. The 8-wheeled vehicles just LOOK too long for good turns. I understand some considerations make them better under certain conditions, but not enough. I know this can seem "argument of the beard," - how much armor is enough. I am just afraid the WCV is not "enough." My instinctive prejudice. Maybe a great vehicle for Marines, particularly if the alternative is the AAV, given your constraints. I remember the Army borrowed some LAVs during 1st Gulf and was impressed. Wish you'd gotten that tracked expeditionary speedboat that was recently cancelled

3. Army dismounts. I think it all came about in the '70s. Armor was testing the XM800 Armored Reconnaissance Scout Vehicle (ARSV) and Infantry the MICV. ARSV had a two-man turret and MICV a single-man turret. The administration told the Army it couldn't have both, so the two-man turret was put on the MICV, the 25mm and TOW were added, and we got the M2/M3, Not enough room for infantry dismounts and too damned big for an ARSV.

4, Armored Cavalry Regiment as a BCT. Have to add infantry or watch the mission. Maybe drop one squadron for one or two mech battalions, but it would lose something. Cavalry dragging infantry around can't "do" cavalry. BUT, the Israelis used a couple tank brigades without infantry in the '73 war and RPG teams shot 'em to pieces (this from an Israeli LTC in my armor advanced course in '79). Gotta have a good ratio of tanks to infantry for any viable force. It gets complicated. I don't know. Sending in a armored cav squadron to support a Marine expeditionary unit as a follow-on would be good. The ACR needs to adjust equipment a bit. A lighter scout and a lighter tank. No Strykers! Maybe an ACR guy would comment.

5. Tanks. We had a "good" tank in WWII, the M4 Sherman. We lost a lot of crews. The tank had good mobility, good automotive design, good speed, but totally inadequate armor. ("Vun uf our tanks is as good as any TEN uf yours, but you always haf ELEVEN") We need more than an "adequate" tank. Tanks play a different role in the Army in maneuver warfare than they do for the Marines (as I understand it, and given the ratio of infantry to armor). We have moved the Armor School to the Infantry Center at Fort Benning and, for the most part, the last 20 years of war have been an infantry war, a lot of urban combat, of a different sort than envisioned for Europe in the Fulda Gap. I'm afraid that has affected the thinking about combined arms maneuver warfare in the same way air-to-air missiles affected fighter armament in the Fifties. It's hard to appreciate something different if all your experience is of one thing. We need a GREAT tank. Too much Infantry influence on Armor thinkers?

All this said, I appreciate your response and the perspective you brought to the discussion. I'm just old, opinionated, and out-of-date. I don't want lessons to be re-learned at the expense of the lives of our kids, and dismantling of our armed forces through lack of funding is a something we have been through before. We can't trade in all our muscle so we can fit on an airplane. And we need to remember Donn Starry and his "come-as-you-are" war.