Recovering knocked out tanks....

[Extra Crispy]

Any information for a rule of thumb (I know, "how ling is a piece of string?") on how many knocked out tanks might be recoverable, and how fast could they be put back in to service?

Thinking about a campaign. Let's say on June 1 you lose 50 tanks. Some will be unrecoverable. A lucky few will have an easily fixed/patched/repaired problem and can be made ready for use again.

Out of those 50, how many would be back in action in a day? A week? Never?

[Delta Echo]

A lot of factors to consider... what contry, what tank, when and where the battle occured... Provide some more details... Late WWII Americans? Iraqi Republican Guard? It makes a huge difference.

[7.62]

Just a wild number here, I have no back ground in the rules side of this. Just a Mac Gyver approach to aircraft and old English car repair.

One in three for damaged vehicles ie not taken out with a kill.

One is BER (beyond economic repair) /unrecoverable.
One minor damage but recovered.
Another one minor damaged and recovered.

From the two recovered with minor damage one should be fixable with the good parts from the other.
Assuming no correct spares are available and resupply is 100km away (a normal day in conflict). Just recovery team with tools/duct tape.

In as much as one lost track/roadwheels the other lost turret electrics. Make one good from two bad. This was the thinking in the 80's
Nowadays if the USB is hit and you can't plug the laptop in you are up the creek.

Time and 100 other effects left out.

Mac Gyver could fix both but I'm dealing with an Inmagi-Nation which is more believable.

[Waddell]

I don't remember the rates from this book but look up Col. Depuy's book on Numbers and War. It's a set of rules for wargaming based on the statistical model they devised. There's a whole section on recovering units after they're knocked out in combat.

[Extra Crispy]

Talking WW2 here.

Naturally you have to hold the field. If you retreat, no recovery.

Just thinking about a campaign / operational level game idea...

[BattlerBritain]

If anybody's got the Dupuy's book I'd be interested in seeing what it says.

I'm making my own rules for a platoon level game and have tank recovery figured out in a similar 'one-in-three' pattern:
For each tank recovery platoon at the end of a 2hr turn they can recover x1 wrecked tank if they can get to it without being shot at by enemy forces. Terrain and friendly stands block fire and I only allow a direct fire range of 1200m, ie a foot on the table for this scale.

The recovery vehicles can then recover the wreck back to the Brigade HQ.

At the end of each 2hr turn for each x3 wrecks at Brigade HQ:
x1 is permanently lost - put it back in the box
x1 is repairable and can go back to a Bn
x1 needs longer repair time and is moved up to Div recovery depot.

At night process any recovered wrecks at Div recovery depot in 3's as for Brigade HQ processing.

Seems to work and means that recovery vehicles become important and so does possession of the battlefield, to get the wrecks recovered.

I also have it that infantry can assault enemy wrecks and if they cause damage the wreck is not recoverable.

[paul]

For modern warefare I think you have to consider a few things. The M1 was designed for the engine to be replaced in a couple of hours so it should have a reduced downtime. Any tank hit by a depleted uranium round has to be thoroughly cleaned out otherwise the new crew will be exposed to radiation. This takes longer.

Ownership of the battlefield should be the most important but if both sides are playing with recovery vehicles in the game then technically the loser could still recover some vehicles. Add in the fact that a tank can drag an APC the number of recovered vehicles could be larger.

[piersyf]

For WW2 (and shortly after) some things to consider...

1) a tank that has burned is not recoverable, as the armour is wrecked. It can be stripped for spares (as many a photo shows, some were stripped to a standard that would impress many a street gang, and on occasions done so under fire). For me, any kill roll which is more than twice what is needed guarantees a burn out.

2) normal procedure for the army involved. UK has tech support troops, Germany had idienst, US had a mech section in company HQ; essentially a few guys in light vehicles carring a small tool kit and some spares that aren't normally carried on a tank. Think road side assistance. Anything they can't fix goes to the next level, and because they deal with minor issues, are usually able to get a vehicle moving again in an hour or so. The main thing with this is that the vehicle may be able to drive itself to the next level or repair and not need to wait for recovery. Also, tech support is integral to the company of armour, so response time is short. The odd thing about this category is that the more vehicles that burn, the higher percentage of this category of kills you'll get. Think about it; you see your fellows brewing up around you, you get hit on a drive wheel, you don't stick around. On the other hand, rounds pinging off your tank and every one elses, just the occasional one stopped, you might just stick around longer. Anything from 10% to 50% of kills (that didn't burn) might be in this group.

3) Recovery. Vehicle can't be fixed by local (company) assets you go to the recovery team. For this you need access to the vehicle (not necessarily hold the ground). The recovery team needs to know where the vehicle is and make plans to get it. This is often a minor operation in itself, sometimes several hours in the planning let alone execution. Recovery itself may also take several hours depending on the location and state of the vehicle. Once recovered it has to be moved to a rear area where the workshop is located. As a general rule, anything that can't be fixed in 2 days gets sent further back to a depot unit (unless German, where it was sent back to the factory for a rebuild... yes, to Germany) It's impossible to know what percentage cannot be repaired inside the 2 days. Most of these units could rebuild an entire vehicle if they have the bits. Whatever works for you. Be aware that anything moved to a depot with US or UK forces is written off the unit records and they get a new vehicle sent. In German units it stays on the books (meaning the unit is not entitled to a replacement).

4) Recovery assets and the condition of your recovery groups determines how many vehicles can be fixed in a given space of time. Casualties among your tech troops (and/or equipment loss) will reduce the capacity of the repair elements (slowing down the rate of return). Same applies to medical units.

[panzergator]

This is an admirable and very interesting discussion, particularly in light of the disinterest in logistics expressed in discussion regarding a suggestion for a logistics combat command. As an Armor guy with a secondary specialty in logistics, I applaud addressing the subject. As young tankers, we all wanted to be the ops guys, and it was only after time as a company XO, battalion maintenance officer, headquarters company commander, school training, and brigade S-4, did I begin to appreciate the challenge, not to mention the role played, of logistics in a battle, not to mention a campaign.

I get it, though. In the pictures here, most of the games look short, limited in scope, and at company level, lasting maybe an afternoon. Perhaps the OPFOR is a battalion (I guess I think in US terms) to provide a proper ratio. I suppose a game could impose artificial constraints, such as speeding up time without moving on the battlefield (a dice roll or an umpire dictated "It is now 12 hours later, ammunition and supply levels have dropped by one half, and you must consider resupply, re-arm, casualties, chow, etc.") Or once every 2 hours, logistics levels drop artificially by one third, and the commander must plan for that, start moving resupply into position, etc.

After all, we've all made fun of the Lone Ranger's unlimited ammunition on Saturday mornings... uh, well, some of us older guys have.

Just think. There is now room on a commander's staff for an S-4, a support platoon leader, coordination with a brigade support battalion commander who overseas the effort, a maintenance battalion commander, a company XO, and the commander must direct all of that instead of just managing the tactical op. Lots of extra players to coordinate and fight with.

[Extra Crispy]

I'm actually a big fan of command and control, logistics and so on. But in the time frame of most games logistics at least just isn't an issue - instead it's a "modifier." So a command on short supply might have limited artillery or be -1 on shooting.

But I'm thinking of doing a series of linked games - kind of a mini campaign. It will be fictional and set on the Eastern front (just because I have enough Soviets and not enough US/British). So tank recovery and logistics will play a role in the game. I'm even thinking of making an operational level map with miniatures (so would have a use for recovery vehicles and so on). Or I might just use a boardgame for that.