88mm Flak 36 Survival
Moderators: dnichols, GHQ, Mk 1
-
General Retreat
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:02 am
- Location: North of Dayton, Ohio
-
TAMMY
- E5
- Posts: 865
- Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:09 am
- Location: MILANO, ITALY
Hi RedLeif
I disagree with your reading of the rules mainly because, for me, the two informations given in the block of the line of sight cannoit be read together.
I use the terrain rules referring to the stands. I make an example. A wood next to clear terrain. You have a stand that enter in the wood keeping its facing towards the clear terrain,
This stand will be visble from outside (with oenalties) till its rear edge stay within 1 inch from the edge of the wood, Visually the stand cover the wood terrain. If the stand move further back, the wood terrain will appear on its front. From now on it became invisible (LOS blocked by the terrain) and could not fire or be fired upon,
In this way you cannot fire through blocking tearrain even if a few millimiters deep.
Your system will allow the fire through it by the unit inside. If you are inside a wood you would be able to fire out of it without any limitation. For example, if you are on the farside of wood 1o inches wide, you could fire onm the near side without any problem.
I disagree with your reading of the rules mainly because, for me, the two informations given in the block of the line of sight cannoit be read together.
I use the terrain rules referring to the stands. I make an example. A wood next to clear terrain. You have a stand that enter in the wood keeping its facing towards the clear terrain,
This stand will be visble from outside (with oenalties) till its rear edge stay within 1 inch from the edge of the wood, Visually the stand cover the wood terrain. If the stand move further back, the wood terrain will appear on its front. From now on it became invisible (LOS blocked by the terrain) and could not fire or be fired upon,
In this way you cannot fire through blocking tearrain even if a few millimiters deep.
Your system will allow the fire through it by the unit inside. If you are inside a wood you would be able to fire out of it without any limitation. For example, if you are on the farside of wood 1o inches wide, you could fire onm the near side without any problem.
Ubicumque et semper
-
RedLeif
- E5
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
- Contact:
Hello TAMMY
you wrote...
"Your system will allow the fire through it by the unit inside. If you are inside a wood you would be able to fire out of it without any limitation. For example, if you are on the farside of wood 1o inches wide, you could fire onm the near side without any problem."
If I understand your concern and example correctly, the rules (section 6 and the text on the TEC) allow the unit in the woods to fire out of the woods it is in as long as it can trace a LOS to the target it wants to attack.
It can fire into the clear terrain to its front without penalty. If it does not have restricted field of fire (it could only fire to its front) and an enemy stand entered the woods adjacent to it, the stand could see and attack the enemy stand - with the 'unwritten' rule I wrote of previously that adjacent stands have LOS to each other, but it would be subject to all the cohesion/crt modifiers when trying to fire at that stand. It could not fire at a stand not adjacent to it in the woods as the woods block LOS. And neither could the enemy stand fire at our friendly stand in the woods for the same reason.
Further, an enemy stand to its front (in the clear terrain), not adjacent to it (say e.g. 3 inches away) could not fire at the stand in the woods until it revealed itself by firing. If the enemy stand (in the clear to its front) was adjacent to the stand in the woods, it could fire at it due to the ‘adjacent rule’ cited above.
Finally, back to the two opposing stands in the woods, lets say they are adjacent and firing at each other. I think the one who fires first pays the cohesion and CRT die modifiers when attacking but the opposing stand (firing back) only pays the CRT modifiers as the first stand ‘fired’ and thus exposed itself and per the TEC loses the cohesion mods but retains the CRT mods.
Saluti,
Red Leif
you wrote...
"Your system will allow the fire through it by the unit inside. If you are inside a wood you would be able to fire out of it without any limitation. For example, if you are on the farside of wood 1o inches wide, you could fire onm the near side without any problem."
If I understand your concern and example correctly, the rules (section 6 and the text on the TEC) allow the unit in the woods to fire out of the woods it is in as long as it can trace a LOS to the target it wants to attack.
It can fire into the clear terrain to its front without penalty. If it does not have restricted field of fire (it could only fire to its front) and an enemy stand entered the woods adjacent to it, the stand could see and attack the enemy stand - with the 'unwritten' rule I wrote of previously that adjacent stands have LOS to each other, but it would be subject to all the cohesion/crt modifiers when trying to fire at that stand. It could not fire at a stand not adjacent to it in the woods as the woods block LOS. And neither could the enemy stand fire at our friendly stand in the woods for the same reason.
Further, an enemy stand to its front (in the clear terrain), not adjacent to it (say e.g. 3 inches away) could not fire at the stand in the woods until it revealed itself by firing. If the enemy stand (in the clear to its front) was adjacent to the stand in the woods, it could fire at it due to the ‘adjacent rule’ cited above.
Finally, back to the two opposing stands in the woods, lets say they are adjacent and firing at each other. I think the one who fires first pays the cohesion and CRT die modifiers when attacking but the opposing stand (firing back) only pays the CRT modifiers as the first stand ‘fired’ and thus exposed itself and per the TEC loses the cohesion mods but retains the CRT mods.
Saluti,
Red Leif
-
TAMMY
- E5
- Posts: 865
- Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:09 am
- Location: MILANO, ITALY
Hallo Redleif
I forgot two words in my eample "outside of it"
If I read you correctly you say that a unit in a wood could fire out of it witgout consdering how deep it is in it, while I am saying that this is possible only if the back edge of your stand is within 1" of the edge of the wood. Before firing the unit within 1" of the edge of the wood (and in it) is visible and could be taken as a target with penalties to cohesion and CRT.
In other word, you are saying that a unit in the center of a wood area of, say, 10" of diameter may fire to a unit outside of the wood without problem and will be invisible till it fire.
I am saying that this is impossible because the fire from deep inside the wood cross blocking terrain. Or a unit invisible for the terrain cannot fire,
I forgot two words in my eample "outside of it"
If I read you correctly you say that a unit in a wood could fire out of it witgout consdering how deep it is in it, while I am saying that this is possible only if the back edge of your stand is within 1" of the edge of the wood. Before firing the unit within 1" of the edge of the wood (and in it) is visible and could be taken as a target with penalties to cohesion and CRT.
In other word, you are saying that a unit in the center of a wood area of, say, 10" of diameter may fire to a unit outside of the wood without problem and will be invisible till it fire.
I am saying that this is impossible because the fire from deep inside the wood cross blocking terrain. Or a unit invisible for the terrain cannot fire,
Ubicumque et semper
-
RedLeif
- E5
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
- Contact:
Hi TAMMY,
I think we're misunderstanding each other. Please accept my apologies if I was unclear.
The points I was making include:
1) A unit in concealing terrain may fire out of that terrain type if it can trace a clear LOS to a target. Obviously intervening terrain that blocks LOS prevents this.
A unit in 10" of wood or even 2" of woods can not fire through an intervening inch of woods because the intervening woods blocks LOS. I agree completely with you on this.
2) Adjacent stands in concealing terrain type should be able to trace LOS.
If a unit is in woods and adjacent to (that is, in base to base contact with) an enemy unit also in woods or ANY Concealing Terrain type, they can see each other. If the opposing stands are not adjacent, in concealing terrain, they cannot see each other. I tried to be clear about the “adjacent†and “non adjacent†relationship of the stands in my example. Sorry if this was unclear.
The MATG rules don't include this in the text at all that I'm aware of. This adjacency issue is a rule in the MS rulebook and I strongly urge players of MATG to adopt it in their games as well.
Saluti,
RedLeif
I think we're misunderstanding each other. Please accept my apologies if I was unclear.
The points I was making include:
1) A unit in concealing terrain may fire out of that terrain type if it can trace a clear LOS to a target. Obviously intervening terrain that blocks LOS prevents this.
A unit in 10" of wood or even 2" of woods can not fire through an intervening inch of woods because the intervening woods blocks LOS. I agree completely with you on this.
2) Adjacent stands in concealing terrain type should be able to trace LOS.
If a unit is in woods and adjacent to (that is, in base to base contact with) an enemy unit also in woods or ANY Concealing Terrain type, they can see each other. If the opposing stands are not adjacent, in concealing terrain, they cannot see each other. I tried to be clear about the “adjacent†and “non adjacent†relationship of the stands in my example. Sorry if this was unclear.
The MATG rules don't include this in the text at all that I'm aware of. This adjacency issue is a rule in the MS rulebook and I strongly urge players of MATG to adopt it in their games as well.
Saluti,
RedLeif