Modern/Cold War Civilians PLEASE

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:02 am

The Geneva Convetion of today states the respect of civilian life but the actual results are called "collateral damages" or, sometimes, "war crimes". This a realism I prefer to avoid.

About wounded (or prisoners) in most rules are an abstraction. The units are usually removed from the game and there is not an organized structure to take care of them or to escort them.

In how many rules you can see a first aid staion? Or a collection point for prisoners?

zaevor2000 · Post by **zaevor2000** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:12 am

I definitely understand your viewpoint.

Unfortunately the sad reality is that where there is war in urban or rural environments, there are going to be civilians that will not leave their homes or are going about business as usual.

There are many situations where you don't fire at certain places to prevent civilian casualties.

This is part of what makes combat in built up areas so difficult at times...just because you CAN engage doesn't mean you should. You don't want to have innocent blood on your hands.

You have to find a workaround to still accomplish the mission without endangering the civilians in the area.

You have to account for the ENTIRE picture, not just the military portion....

This is probably why GHQ has produced Vietnamese civilians as well as Middle East civilians.

Civilians are part of the landscape....

Having civilian figures in the vicinity would help the gamer bear in mind that they can't go mindlessly shooting up every town and building they see....there should be SEVERE penalties if civilians are harmed.

That will put gamers in the proper frame of mind and make them think twice before they blow away every dwelling they see "just to be on the safe side"...they have to think very long and hard about the outcry that will result from needless casualties (not to mention every family member and friend that will be out for revenge)...

Having civilian/refugee figures would help bring this factor into the equation....

A land warfare game without any civilians in the vicinity is about as realistic as a WW2 Pacific game with none of those messy carriers or planes around...

They are there and need to be accounted for...

CG2 · Post by **CG2** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:28 pm

I also think that we need to respect the fact that wargamers have different wishes and allow them to play whichever aspects they wish. Hence W.47, WWII Rumanians, aircraft, landing craft etc that a 'standard' game might not include.

I would also re-state that many modern conflicts must have civilians as they are fundamental to the conflict, either as persons to be protected or as the actual opposition.

Waddell · Post by **Waddell** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:50 pm

CG2, what kind of rules did you put in place to reflect logistics and casualty handling? I would be VERY interested in how you handled these things in a game setting.

Waddell · Post by **Waddell** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:52 pm

CG2, what kind of rules did you put in place to reflect logistics and things like casualty handling, civilians, etc. in your game? I'd be very interested in how you handled these things.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:14 am

I do not want to negate reality, I simply said that in my games I would not like to have around passive civilians. Unrealistic? may be but I play from Ancient to Cold-War era and I have anough scenarios not involving civiilians.

It's only a personal choice based on my ideas of a game.

Talking of realism, I would add that the idea that the presence of civilians will be a tactical constrains is partial and apply only to a regular army and not always. For example Syrians or Lybian armies have not much respect of civilians. Not to speak of wars involving militias or religious enemies.

The reality is that 90% ofn all the losses in conflicts after 1990 are civilians.

CG2 · Post by **CG2** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:42 am

Well, I'd be interested to see where you draw the line on what a civilian is (and I'm not sure I know what the answer is).

Let me list some scenarios and I'd be interested to see where members draw the line. I've listed them in a general sort of progression from obvious civilian to obvious soldier. Feel free to comment!

1. Uninterested person who just wants the conflict to be somewhere else and favours neither side.
2. Person who defends his property/family when faced by aggression from any side.
3. Person who votes for a state government that is one of the aggressors.
4. Person who is an active member of a state party in Government controlling an aggressor
5. Person who shouts abuse at only one side in a conflict
6. Person who provides medical/food etc support to only one aggressor party
7. Person who throws rocks/petrol bombs at only one side in a conflict
8. Armed person not part of any formal organisation
9. Armed person part of informal organisation
10. Official member of a State Army/Regular Force

CG2 · Post by **CG2** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:45 am

Wadell - I'll start a new topic on the rules I use as this is a new subject.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:23 am

CG2 a civilian is anyone who is not a member of the armed forces or of an organized armed group.

The category 2 in a war situation is on the border of the definition, but I doubt that any soldier will check if is part of an armed group or not before answering to his fire.

3 to 6 are civilians.

The category 7 are civilians like any demonstrant can show. Thery break the law doing this but remain "civilians. See Intifada.

8, 9, 10 are not civilians.

Waddell · Post by **Waddell** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:04 am

Amazon sells architectural models of civilians in 1:300 scale for $4.44. Is usable for European civilians? The figures come in standing, sitting, male & female. The models are intended for use by architects in building models but there is no reason they can't be used for your purposes.

jb · Post by jb » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:41 pm

I've gotten a bag of about 100 1/300, architectural painted civilians off of eBay;10 bucks incl shipping, Excellent! I just glue them 3-5 to my bases Voila!
Hey, how about some ZOMBIES?