What are your favorite wargaming rules for micro armor?

[madman]

Please a few questions on Mein Panzer.

How are infantry handled? Squads, fire teams, weapons teams or individuals? If I have a squad (8 to 13) riflemen do I roll for each or as a team? Are support weapons figured in or a separate roll or team (I am talking lmgs or BARS which would be tactically part of the squad)? Can I have a whole game of nothing but infantry or is it too dull/ tedious/ or of no effect in game terms?

I ask as I have found the Conflict of Heroes system really good for infantry. To be honest I have yet to play any armour in it and do not know how I will feel about that aspect.

For infantry or armour I would like to stick between platoon and company size a side games.

Based on the web site I would have to buy the core rules $30 plus the WWII data book, another $40 just to play a game. Is this correct? What do the data cards add to the game?

Thank you.

Stephen

[Mk 1]

Please a few questions on Mein Panzer.

And so, a few answers....

How are infantry handled? Squads, fire teams, weapons teams or individuals?

Since v.2 the rules have focused on squads as the basic infantry stand. They do have some variant ruleset for fire-team (half-squad) based infantry, but I focus exclusively on the squad-based stuff as present in the Mein Panzer core rules.

There is data for a great variety of squad organizations. In general, a squad would be 8-12 men, armed with rifles and one (or two) LMG(s). A squad will have two "hit points", and will have two combat factors. It may also have two rates of fire (ROF).

This will vary by squad type. So for example in the Russian army you will find stats for a squad with SVT40 semi auto rifles and 1 DP28 LMG, or with 2 DP28 LMGs, or with PPSh SMGs and 1 or 2 DP28 LMGs, or Mosin bolt-action rifles and 1 or 2 DP28 LMGs, or for SVT40s, or PPShs, or Mosins without LMGs.

Let's take an example. Say a rifle squad with Mosin bolt-action rifles and 1 DP28. It will have 2 hit points, and a combat rating of 9/6, and an ROF of 2/1. This means when you shoot you use a 9 as your "attack factor", but if you prefer you can shoot two times in one turn at your reduced "attack factor", which is 6. If you take casualties, you drop down to 1 HP, and you get ONLY the second numbers -- so a combat factor of 6 and an ROF of 1.

You can also have smaller "team" or "crew" sized stands. These will have only 1 hit point and one set of numbers from the start, and are eliminated after taking 1 casualty. So while your infantry squads may have stands their own DP28s, there are also separate crews with Maxim HMGs in your company. These may have a decent combat factor and ROF, but will have only one hit point and so can be eliminated after taking only one casualty.

The casualties issue is a balance between record-keeping and giving some flavor to the infantry combat. It's really pretty easy to track. I use casualty figures (old broken-off-at-the-ankles figures from the extras box, set on a small bit of red base) which I drop onto the infantry stand to indicate they have taken a hit and are at reduced strength. I then remove the stand if it is eliminated, but leave the casualty marker on the game board as a reminder of the losses from an intense infantry fight.

If I have a squad (8 to 13) riflemen do I roll for each or as a team? Are support weapons figured in or a separate roll or team (I am talking lmgs or BARS which would be tactically part of the squad)?

Yes your squad acts as a single unit, in game terms. Support weapons are handled separately as crews. With some weapons you can chose how to base them ... for example a bazooka can be part of a squad (a separate mechanism for anti-tank combat means you would role separately for it's use), or it can be just a crew. I keep most support weapons separate.

Can I have a whole game of nothing but infantry or is it too dull/ tedious/ or of no effect in game terms?

I have found the infantry combat to be very engaging. Not like a replay of an episode of COMBAT!, but engaging in that I can play a company of infantry and see effects of the maneuver of the platoons and of suppression, and difficult matters become if the enemy achieves fire superiority. The infantry is very "sticky" -- it takes a lot of time to eliminate infantry due to the 2 kills to kill them model. But once your infantry starts suffering suppression you'll feel compelled by the mechanisms of the game to pull them back and let them recover for a turn or two -- and you don't need a "failed morale check" on a die role against a table with 23 modifiers for that result.

I have found the rules provide me with very compelling games that are dominated by armor with a little bit of infantry, or dominated by infantry with a little bit of armor, or that have some armor on one side but not on the other.

For infantry or armour I would like to stick between platoon and company size a side games.

With Mein Panzer the turn sequence is built around the platoon. Each turn has impulses. In each impulse each player (both sides) activates one unit (which is generally a platoon). The actions of the activated units are simultaneous within the impulse, but not between impulses in the turn. So if you activate a platoon of infantry, and I activate a platoon of tanks, and I shoot up your AT guns, then your AT guns can't fire at me in the next impulse. But if you had activated your AT guns in the same impulse, even though I had shot them up they would still conduct their shooting in the impulse.

The turn continues until every unit has been activated one time. Once every player has activated all his units once, the turn ends. Then you have various turn housekeeping, and you move on to the next turn.

One result of this structure is that you will want to have a few platoons per player to make the game interesting. The unit = platoon is not a hard rule. Sometimes you might have independent attachments or separate HQs that can activate on their own. But in general the units are platoons, and you will activate one platoon per impulse.

Playing with only one platoon per player would thus remove one of the key aspects of the game.

The game moves along very nicely, because nobody is just sitting around waiting for the other side to do things. Everyone is active every impulse, but generally only with 3 to 5 elements in a platoon. So the impulses are quick. It also scales to more than 2 players very gracefully, again because each impulse is limited enough that 4 or 5 guys can get their stuff done all at the same time.

Almost all of the die roles start with a basic troop quality rating. So better troops have a bit of an edge every time the dice are thrown. And the fact that you activate by unit (platoon) means that your order of battle is staring you right in the face every impulse of every turn. Both of these factors -- troop quality and the organization of your forces, are kind of like artificial overlays on top of other aspects in most rulesets I've played. Here, they are built right in to the mechanics of the game.

All just my observations of course. Lots of folks like different things in their games, so I've tried to describe not just what I like, but how it actually works (and why I like it).

-Mark

[madman]

Mark

Thank you for the detail of your reply. I will digest it at length. Just what I was looking for in an answer..

[Zippy]

I am back to Bruce Quarrie's old rules. Getting the Western front stats to match the Eastern front stats keeps me busy
Mike

[madman]

A favor to ask of anyone with a copy of Tractics. Some very kind person made a photocopy of the entire rules set for me a few months back. Of course I have deleted all old messages. The only thing is they didn't make a copy of page one of the first book. If any of you kind souls would be willing to scan and email I would be most grateful. Please PM me with contact info and I will reply. Thank you.

Stephen[/url]

[pmskaar]

Mark I and I both enjoy Mein Panzer and Mark has gone into much more length than me on why he likes the rules with some detailed explanations of how they work. I think they are really good and have been using them for years.

One of the things I find interesting is these rules have been around for almost 20 years but seem to get very little coverage in forums related to World War II game rules. In my opinion they are fun and relatively fast playing if everyone is cooperating to move the game along.

One of the things that I really like about the rules is the modular approach that they take. If you want tanks only, then read the main core rules and you are ready to go. If you decide to add infantry, then there is a separate section for that. Basically you can make the game as simple or complex as you want.
As Mark said, the game handles multi players really well with the impulse driven system, all the players on one side are fully engaged during their impulse. The opposing players do have to pay some attention in case they have overwatch fires to conduct. The impulses are short enough to keep the other side at the ready to conduct its series of impulses. There is little waiting around for 1 side to complete all its moves before the other side gets to do anything.

With each player in command of a company sized element that typically equates to 3 to 5 impulses per player per turn. The number of impulses per turn are based on the player with the smallest number of platoon sized units. This interaction between the players makes this a fun game.

I plan to run a Mein Panzer game at Imperial Outpost here in the greater Phoenix area in September to see if I can introduce some new players to the game. I have been pretty successful in doing this on previous occasions.

Pete

[madman]

A very big thank you to Mark Severin (Extra Crispy) and his company Scale Creep for helping an old timer (GHQ since about '73 or so) out with getting a copy of Tractics. Also his very good and quick turn around with bases, so I can waste time thinking how to employ them.

Stephen

[Winks]

Pete is a good friend of mine. He loves Mein Panzer and me not so much. It is way too slow for me. Takes almost and hour per turn.

I play FFT 3 and like it but.... it is too fast. I prefer a but more detail.

I've tried Jagdpanzer. It's ok.

I am going to try Panzer and MBT with miniatures. I like the system and it moves fairly quick with a good level of detail for me.

Just played Battlegroup for the first time. This I like. I don't see too many problems using it with micro armor.

[dougeagle]

I've got and played...
GHQ- WWII
GHQ- Modern
FFT2 (post WWII to modern)
FFT3 (both WWII and Modern)
Spearhead
Kampfgruppe Commander II (now there is a KG3...don't own it)
Command Decision: Test of Battle
Too Fat Lardies- I ain't been shot mom!
Schwere Kompanie

All of them are fun to play. FFT2 was my first into modern wargaming. GHQ-WWII was my first into WWII gaming. I Ain't Been Shot Mom is a side step as it's 1 stand = Squad, 1 tank is 1 tank, where as all the others are 1 stand= platoon. Plus, IABSM uses either cards or poker chips, all which are labeled, as a way for activation...which can get interesting at time...lol. MLuther has posted his AAR's using IABSM.
I did try Blitzkrieg Commander when it was v1...reminded me too much of Flames of War when I played it.
Each set of rules has their own uniqueness to it which makes each system fun to play.

[pmskaar]

Here are my observations of Mein Panzer but could apply to many game systems out there.

My friend Kevin said his experience with Mein Panzer has been that it plays too slow for him, about an hour per turn. I do agree with him in that I have been involved in games that the turns have taken a long time before completion but I don't think that is necessarily the case. Here are some factors that can make a game turn longer or shorter and therefore influence the total length of game.

1. Size of the game. I find in Mein Panzer that if each player is commanding a company of 3 to no more than 5 platoons, that gives about the right workload per player. The more impulses that constitute a turn, the longer a turn takes.

2. Level of player experience. I have yet to get a group of guys where everyone is an expert on the rules and even us "experts" still have to check things in the rules once in a while. If I am running a game for newbies with some seasoned Mein Panzer Veterans thrown in, I try to make it a tank only game and leaving out most of the other elements to keep things moving. If you are able to get and maintain a good group of players that know the rules and want to play and have fun you are doing quite well.

3. Level of host/referee experience. I admit that when I ran my first few large games as the referee, I needed to look lots of things up and even made some erroneous calls due to poor rules interpretations. The better the referee knows the rules the quicker any questions or rules challenges can be resolved which leads to faster play. The more the players are able to resolve disputes quickly among themselves without getting into a snit helps also.

The referee's job is also to keep the game moving at a fairly quick pace. In Mein Panzer, the side that is activated should all be doing their moves simultaneously. I have noticed that sometimes one or two players are doing their moves while the others are kibbitzing or otherwise not being fully engaged in moving their own units.
Sometimes you have a player or two that takes an inordinate amount of time to make the "perfect" move. A simple approach is to only allow a certain amount of time for each impulse before moving on.

4. Game preparation. I try to make sure that as a host, I have the terrain and minis ready to go. Also any new rules or house rules need to be addressed prior to play in order that there are no surprises and hence no disputes over them later in the game which will slow things down. I try to make sure each player has their own play sheets and charts etc so the players don't have to wait while another player is using the charts.

5. New rules. Any new rules should be introduced gradually. If players get too much information at once it will slow the game down. Consider when adding a new rules section such as infantry or artillery, maybe trying it out with 1 or 2 other preferably veteran players to ensure any procedural questions are addressed in a game with a smaller less ambitious venue.

I'm sure there are some other areas I could cover but hopefully everyone gets the idea. Some games are more detailed than others and different players like different levels of detail in their games. For me, overall, Mein Panzer is a fair balance of playability and detail.

I have played several Mein Panzer games to successful conclusion in only 2 or 3 hours for the game but admit that we have gotten into some where the size of the game and the additional rules made it too slow for some of the players.

As for Fist Full of TOWs 3, I have played this 3 times so far. Kevin ran all 3 games I attended and I enjoyed the experience. It is generally intended to be a game where 1 stand is a platoon and that is how I prefer it although it can be played at the 1 to 1 level as well. I had no problem with some of the abstractions as I thought that it gave reasonable results.

Pete

[Sudwind]

These look interesting....operational level:

http://www.testofbattle.com/upload/bob/

[Extra Crispy]

Pete makes some good points about running games. It is *very* rare that I run a game without at least 1 noob and a few who sorta know the rules. In addition to his points I would add a few things I do to keep games moving and help players learn the rules.

A) Better reference sheets. Many writers, obsessed with brevity, cram all their tables on to one page, double sided. This is a mistake in my opinion. It means player spend lots of time looking for the right charts, and then cross referencing a roster with said charts. I tend to make custom sheets that combine rosters. Then, break up unit stats by turn sequence. So, everything related to movement is in one place, everything related to shooting in one place, everything related to assaults in one place. This includes summaries of how to do things as well as all your stats. You may end up with a 4 page QRS but you will find it actually helps games play MUCH faster. Here is an idea of what I'm talking about, part of the QRS from my Flames of War variant:



B) Give players simple forces. You can give most gamers a good number of units, but make them of just 2 or 3 types at most. So for my latest 1944 game, Soviets got T70s and T34s. Some players got 85s, some got 76s. AT guns were 57 or 76mm. Germans had Stug Gs, PzIV G and Hs, Pak 40s and Pak 43s. But a given player only had two unit types. After a few turns they have pretty much memorized their basic stats.

C) Mini Demo Game: If you have time and room, play on the table the "long" way. Then, in the middle, have a small skirmish. This allows you to demonstrate the rules. So on Turn 1 everyone moved and no one was in range. But in the middle of the table a T34/85 was trying to hold off 2 Pazner IVs (I ran these guys). They shot at each other on trn 1. So now the players have seen how shooting works. But with just 3 tanks involved it took all of 30 seconds to resolve. Now when they have to shoot they know how many dice they need and of what kind, and where to find their shooting stats.

D) Oddball Scenario: New rules can be overwhelming and make the game a bit dull. So try to come up with a novel scenario, something with a good "story." This livens up the game. Nothing wrong with a good old tank bash, but adding in a twist gets players more excited to play and learn the rules (in one Vietnam game I ran, the US were trying to reach a village, because there were some lovely ladies waiting there to 'love you long time').

E) Do Overs: As judge, do NOT be afraid to give a player a "do over" now and then if you can. Maybe he forgot to shoot a tank, or move a gun. If you can allow it without blowing up the game do so. This reduces player stress - no worrying about getting every move "just right" if you know there's a little slack in the system. But when you do, make sure you stress that rule to players again.

F) And always, great terrain covers up a multitude of sins.

[pmskaar]

Hi Extra Crispy

Those are excellent ideas and should be considered when running a game for a group.

I have started making up my own vehicle stat sheets for each particular game which makes it easier to reference as the print is much larger than what I can fit on to the stat sheets provided. I do admit that for Mein Panzer I could probably stand to enlarge some of the other tables at least to make it easier.

It is a good idea when introducing new players to a game to take them aside and do a small demonstration of some of the basic game mechanics.

In Mein Panzer, I will show a new player how a simple shooting engagement works by just setting up 2 tanks on the terrain and having 1 shoot at the other with the newbie rolling the die so he can be fully engaged in the process. He can follow the charts and the procedures while he gets to see what happens.
Also make time for any questions before the game as well as taking time to answer any questions that might arise during play. Your objective is to try to get people to enjoy the game enough that they will want to play in the next one.

As Mark has mentioned, a nice looking game will often attract new players and if they are having fun will make them want to come back.

Pete

[Steel Arrows]

Challenger modern armor system. Classic Leopard Tracks modern. MBT boardgame rules adjusted for micro armor play.

[Steel Arrows]

Challenger modern armor system. Classic Leopard Tracks modern. MBT boardgame rules adjusted for micro armor play.