First civillians ...

[jb]

If I was GHQ, I would eliminate Ulrich's inflammatory and highly unneccessary posts. That's what I would do.

I think this this is the first time in the history of this board that there has been name calling, rudeness, and a lack of civility.

Even when we have disagreed before - like recently SkyPig and me, we did it with a great deal of respect for our differing opinions.

Ulrich's opinions are nothing short of being out of hand and over the top.

This thread could use a lock on it.

And I still like the civilian models, and hope for more.

You got that right. I did have a discrectionary warning to where only those that wanted to view should. I've also moved the pic to its own thread...

[Der Kommandeur]

Hi Guys

Try not to lay all the blame at Ulrich's door though ... I think that would be unfair.

DK

[1ComOpsCtr]

Gentlepersons (so as not to offend anyone),

I think there is a problem in the translation...

UlrichWW's motivation isn't clear, other than his dislike for America in general and our military in particular, though from the view of some in the rest of the world we aren't exactly "loved" for our being the "strongest person on the block".

Since my comments, at least in my view, were not demeaning in any way toward him if you "really" read them, I guess his dislike spreads to those of us who believe the only way you can keep from being overrun by the latest and greatest threat is to be as prepared as possible to defend yourself.

I guess it has more to do with the vulnerability of the European Community in general. If the various States in America were as warring as the Countries in Europe, with their history of subjugating each other throughout the centuries, perhaps we would be more sensitive to "practice warfighting" being offensive.

Again, as stated earlier, I applaud Ulrich's willingness to state his position. What I don't applaud is his attack on something he knows nothing about, which is pretty obvious from his posts.

I, for one, will no longer respond to his posts on the subject.

Thank you for this forum, it is important to the gaming community. Thank the members of the forum for their support of our company's efforts to support our military, and thanks to those members of the forum who are in the military, and support the military, for you efforts on our Country's (and your's) behalf.

Will
ComOpsCtr
http://www.commandoperationscenter.com

[jb]

Gentlepersons (so as not to offend anyone),

I think there is a problem in the translation...

UlrichWW's motivation isn't clear, other than his dislike for America in general and our military in particular, though from the view of some in the rest of the world we aren't exactly "loved" for our being the "strongest person on the block".

Since my comments, at least in my view, were not demeaning in any way toward him if you "really" read them, I guess his dislike spreads to those of us who believe the only way you can keep from being overrun by the latest and greatest threat is to be as prepared as possible to defend yourself.

I guess it has more to do with the vulnerability of the European Community in general. If the various States in America were as warring as the Countries in Europe, with their history of subjugating each other throughout the centuries, perhaps we would be more sensitive to "practice warfighting" being offensive.

Again, as stated earlier, I applaud Ulrich's willingness to state his position. What I don't applaud is his attack on something he knows nothing about, which is pretty obvious from his posts.

I, for one, will no longer respond to his posts on the subject.

Thank you for this forum, it is important to the gaming community. Thank the members of the forum for their support of our company's efforts to support our military, and thanks to those members of the forum who are in the military, and support the military, for you efforts on our Country's (and your's) behalf.

Will
ComOpsCtr
http://www.commandoperationscenter.com

Likewise...

[Der Kommandeur]

"I guess it has more to do with the vulnerability of the European Community in general. If the various States in America were as warring as the Countries in Europe, with their history of subjugating each other throughout the centuries, perhaps we would be more sensitive to "practice warfighting" being offensive."

I don't think that's quite it ... after all Ulrich's a member of a forum that represents folk like him ... collectors of GHQ miniatures.

Also, I don't think there's any 'moral high ground' to be retaind here.

[Der Kommandeur]

Fair enough.

I'm just so very sorry this got so very out of hand

DK

[skypig53]

I think I'm going to order some too.

[thetourist]

My two cents:

Ulrich raises a fair point regarding morality's place in wargaming. I don't think anyone here is a warmonger, but we all seem to enjoy the tactics, the history, and the organizing that comes along with it. I know that I have struggled at times to explain to friends the dichotomy of being a peaceful person and enjoying wargaming. I too have been asking for civilians to be modeled because war, especially modern war is fought right alongside civilians. I think that Ulrich is misunderstanding the purpose of civilian models on a game board. I wouldn't buy them for the purpose of targeting them, but to add a tactical dimension to my games. Modern armies have to consider civilian casualties when conducting operations plain and simple. But if that kind of realism isn't your thing, cool.

As for the name calling and insinuations that military service somehow gives people on this forum a better understanding of how to model or play the game, come on. None of that has any place here. We have done an excellent job keeping this forum free of personal insults until now. I think we all need to take a step back and remember that this is a HOBBY, it's a GAME. Nothing more. Call it a training tool, an obsession, whatever, but ultimately it's just a game.

[1ComOpsCtr]

Chess, Checkers, Risk, Dominos, and almost every other game played on a board, with victory conditions, and little plastic, paper, ivory, or metal pieces is a war game.

Or perhaps I should be more PC and say: "Conflict Gaming"

Conflict, and its resolution, have been the subject of games since the dawn of civilization. Thank whatever deity you believe in that such games exist, because if they didn't perhaps the way every conflict would be resolved was through violence. The challenge of mental "gaming" tends to reduce the need in many for physical "gaming" that can lead to the violence the PC decry. Frankly I find an hour or two being peppered by simunitions in HIGH GEAR when its 95 degrees outside tends to take any desire to be "violent" out of most men, ...and even a few of the women I work with.

I realize many would say all conflicts can be resolved through negotiation, but that's just not possible all the time, so in some cases violence is used as an extension of a States policy making decisions. After all, negotiations lead to compromise... and not every one is willing to compromise.

Warriors, at least those who have experienced real conflict, are more opposed to "war" in all its forms than individuals who have never experienced it. Because true warriors have experienced the horror, the brutality, and the finality of war. It is mostly the individuals who have never experienced what "war" costs/causes who think war is "cool".

I must admit that sharing a beer with a friend you just crushed in a good "wargame" can be a fun, especially if everyone else in the game thought you didn't stand a chance. Isn't that part of it?

One of the things a wargamer brings to this equation is unique. "Wargamers", for the most part, are able to channel their natural aggression to a game, a simulation. Sun Tsu tells us that business is "war". Politics is "war". Not the same "war" as the bringer of death, but a "war" of survival none the less.

The best way we, on this forum, can get GHQ to make more civilian figure packages is to purchase them. So, I for one, will do so at my first opportunity.

I am sorry that some of you have misunderstood my words. I have learned in more than 40 years of conflict that words, when misunderstood, cause conflict. It has not been my intention to insult anyone on this forum. I thought my words were pretty clear on that, but obviously some have taken offense.

I am not PC, so if I have offended you: ...get over it!

Will
ComOpsCtr

[cbovill]

So I guess that makes me an evil SOB too as I intend to use the merchant ships I'm building in an upcoming Battle of the Atlantic campaign game and fully intend that many of them will be sunk by U-Boats. ...but not if the Royal Navy has anything to say about it.

(sorry, couldn't resist - I'll go sit in the corner now.)

Chris

[ShortRound70]

Wow! What a hot topic! I've been away from the forum far too long. (Working in the Big Sleazy will do that.) I saw the Vietnam civilians, and thought that they looked good. Don't know if I'll order any, but I can see a lot of uses for them on the game table. As a veteran, like many of us on this forum, my opinions about the morality or propriaty of wargaming, stays at the door. I enjoy the history, tactics, strategy, and the comradeship of the other old farts who game down here. We all have the right to our opinions. Just remember to keep it civil. We all share a common hobby. My two cents worth.

Semper Fi!
SR70

[David F]

Will,
METT-TC.
David

[robdab]

Gentlemen (and any Ladies who might be reading this forum),

I find this debate on the morals of wargaming, to be very curious in this venue.

And even more disturbing is Carna's wish to censor the free expression of ideas that Western societies hold so dear. Such are born, little tyrants, who would not read/listen nor allow others to read/listen, to any ideas opposed to their own.

But, I digress. Most times that I see a gamer push his GHQ tank model into a firing position and roll a die to resolve the "shot", I hear a cheer or two and then watch as a marker of some sort is placed to indicate the "kill" of an opponent's tank. In other words, the simulated death of 3,4 or 5 human beings (depending on the number of that tank's crew). In the real world some would have died instantly and some would then burn to death, often slowly. I know. I once helped to clear a burned out M-48. It wasn't pretty.

When a gamer rolls his/her die and removes a carboard divisional counter from a hexed map, the simulated death, wounding or capture of 8,000-12,000 men/women has just occured.

Yet some wargamers on this thread seem to be much more greatly upset by a model simulating the passing of one civilian in a wargame ??? Can you spell "hypocracy" boys and girls ?

I have news gents, military tactics, no matter how you try to sanitize them, are designed to KILL PEOPLE. Hopefully more of your enemy than of your friends and even fewer civilians, but that IS the desired result. The role of military officers is to trade the lives of as few of their own troops as is possible, for specified objectives. The wargamer, as "a general", simulates the exact same thing. Lives for objectives. Military, civilian, animal, male, female, children, pets, livestock, its all lives traded for the control of objectives.

Like it or not, war has been the ultimate method chosen by human beings to resolve their differences on this planet, for countless millenia. And I don't see any signs of that fact changing in the forseable future. If OUR society is to continue on into that future, we don't have to enjoy war BUT we DO have to be the BEST at it.

And if you find those facts repugnant, how can you possibly take an active role in this hobby ? You can pretend that "its just a tank model" but you ARE enjoying the simulation of the deaths of future soldiers or the re-creation of the deaths of history's troops. And civilians often get caught in the crossfire, usually due to a bad case of "being in the wrong place at the wrong time" thru no fault of their own choosing.

Get used to it. Its not going to change in the real world, any time soon, either.

And I fervently hope that this has been a polite enough message trying to deal with very impolite topics.

[thenorthman]

For what reason just to have civilians represented on the battlefiled. The same as a river or a hill.

For everything else...everyone has there opinion and should get there opinion that is one thing this country stands for.

Even though I think it was mentioned earlier that the US is peaceful..or something like that....history actually shows that the US has been involved in a major confilict averaged out more than once every ten years of its life.

I love the US, I love playing war games, I love freedom of speech, I love the fact that people can say what they want even though I don't agree with it more often than not.

Keep the FORUM posts coming it does make for an interesting read of the state of poeples mind state.

Sean

[Der Kommandeur]

Hi All

Of course it was not my intention to spark such an intense debate or argument!

Nevertheless, I do think that things get much more interesting when passions are aroused ... but we must all just take those extra few seconds to consider our thoughts before committing them to the 'ether' ... the immediacy of the medium demands this common courtesy from each of us.

Good gaming! Good hunting! Just watch out for those civvies!