M60A2 and M60

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:23 am

Treadhead12,

Thank you for the more definitive information. I left Germany in July of '78 for AOAC, and from there to the swamps of Fort Polk. I didn't get back to Germany until '83, so did not follow much of the transition in detail. We had all we could do to keep our noses above water at Polk! I didn't realize the first A3s were fielded without the TTS. The VSS-3 had been issued to 3-32 before I left. It was a much smaller box than the VSS-2. I don't believe the VSS-3 was issued to A2 units.

I figured there would be some mix during the transition to M1/M2, but didn't know how it was programmed, so that is useful information to me.

Do you know how the A2s were replaced in 1-32AR and 3-33AR? Curious to know if they got A1s in the process and exactly when the replacement occurred, how long they had the A1s if they did, and if they got A3s before M1s. Thanks for any additional info you can provide.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:51 am

Treadhead12,

Although I have been out of the Army a long time, I was extremely chagrinned to see the Armor School moved to Fort Benning. Since it appears you are still at Knox, can you tell me if there is anything "Armor" still going on there. When I was there at various times and for various assignments, it was a bustling place, with all kinds of leading edge things going on. It had noticeably quieted when I visited in the late 90s, but I never imagined the Infantry boys would capture it. Is the new doctrine and location turning tanks into Infantry support again, or is there still something of the spirit of Armor and Cavalry left?

treadhead12 · Post by **treadhead12** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:53 am

Panzergator,

You are welcome. See if I can recall after almost 37 years...

The M60A2's in 3rd AD were replaced by 1980 with M60A1's (the two armor battalions in 1st Bde had the new M60A3's). They had the M60A1's for about a year when 3rd Bde transition to the M60A3 TTS in the summer of 1981. Yes, all armor battalions and the cavalry squadron all got M60A3's before receiving the M1IP's (Improved Production - a transitional M1 tank that had M1A1 armor, but still had the 105mm main gun) in 1985/86. As mentioned only the armor battalions received the M1IP.

Hope that gives some more info. Anything more please let me know.

I worked at V Corps G3 force modernization from 1980-1996 (with a couple of years in 1st AD force modernization 1992-94) and help field the M60A3, M1, M1IP, M1A1, BFV, MLRS, trucks, HMMWV's, improved tank and TOW ammo, and many more. Also helped the re-organization from H series MTOE's to J series/Division '86/Army of Excellence (AOE). As a gamer and modeler, great time and place to be.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:00 am

Treadhead12,

GREAT INFO, and many thanks. Aside from just the additional knowledge, this gives me more ideas for modelling 3AD and adjacent units. There was a lot going on in the early 80s. Bet you were a one-legged man in a butt-kickin' contest!

treadhead12 · Post by **treadhead12** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:04 am

Panzergator,

I was also sad to see the Armor School move to Fort Benning as part of the BRAC. Two Stryker combat teams did move here, but then these were inactivated and the companies parceled out to other Stryker Brigades. That left Fort Knox open to what?? and talk of possible closing.

Since this place was wide open, the military built a large building for the Human Resource Center (HRC) and some National Guard and Army Reserve have filled some the empty areas.

I moved here about six months ago as my job moved from Birmingham, AL, to Fort Knox. Last time I was here was in September, 1986, almost 30 years to the day.

The Patton Museum is here, but the only armor (M1A1) I saw was on a flatbed truck on route 31W coming toward post; and I have felt some indirect fire impacts (I live in Radcliff not too far from the post boundary on the southeast side). So maybe some 120mm mortar training going on. We do computer simulations for the Army to help train staffs, and units.

Things have changed here in 30 years....

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:31 am

Kinda sad, isn't it? I'm surprised the Patton Museum is still there. Armor has been robbed of a lot of history and tradition. I heard the tank collection was moved to Benning and a new museum opened for it. Kind of an insult, and the Patton Museum really should be where tankers are being trained. Given the Iraq insurgency and Afghanistan have been primarily infantry actions, I was afraid that the last couple generations of Armor officers would lose the Armor spirit that was so painfully regained with Air Land Battle. I still am. I suppose I have the Old Guy's resistance to change. I'm the type who saved that last copy of the 1966 Armor Operations because it had a lot of useful info in it. I still have it.

There was concern even when I was there with the Armor Board ('81) that Fort Knox was too much in the middle of civilization and could no longer safely support Armor training. I don't know how Benning is much better. Seems to me it would have been better to move to Hood or some other place with more space, along with the Infantry School, since both need a lot more space for combined arms training.

I live near Fort Leavenworth, where my wife works. It seems to me that the Army was a much more dynamic organization in the 1970s than it is now, finishing up in and trying to recover from, Vietnam, starting up Air Land Battle, etc. Geez, I spent a month in a place called "Doctrine, Development, Literature, and Plans in the Armor Board builing just off the main parade ground and the first thing I got to read was the final report on MBT70/XM803, I suppose we are in mushy air right now, trying to re-orient to a developing threat environment.

Thanks for updating me. I've been out of the Army a long time, but it only takes a whiff if diesel on a wintry day to make me miss it terribly.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:03 am

Treadhead12,

Just curious. Is the wooden LST building mockup still there?

Hoth_902 · Post by **Hoth_902** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:20 am

@panzergator and Treadhead12,

Thanks so much for all the amazing first hand knowledge you guys are sharing with us. Keep it coming. I think I can speak for everyone when I say this.

panzergator · Post by **panzergator** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:08 pm

Treadhead12,

Well, I google-earthed Fort Knox this morning. Certainly much has changed. I spent a year and a half in 5th BDE, (BCT) along the same company street featured in the movie "Stripes." I see that is entirely gone. I had some good memories there, long hours, but very rewarding. The whole 5th BDE area is completely covered by what I assume is the HR building you mentioned. That was, at one time, 3AD when commanded by Creighton Abrams, with Donn Starry as his aide-de-camp. Lots of other changes, too. I could hardly find my way around without the old landmarks. The move to Benning pretty much scraped the place clean of Armor stuff. Ain't progress just grand... We can now talk about how things were in the "black boot Army!"

treadhead12 · Post by **treadhead12** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:07 pm

Panzergator, yes the wooden LST mock-up building is still here. I drive by every work day. It is considered a historical building and has some of the Patton Museum's tanks stored in it.

To everyone that is reading, you are welcome. I will be willing to share what info I have and remember. I do have a force modernization word document that covers the years 1984, 1986 and 1988 for the units and equipment in V Corps in Germany at those times.

Is there a way to post it here? Or just try a copy and paste?? T'anks.

The Real Bill · Post by **The Real Bill** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:15 am

This is a great topic! Thanks to all of you who have added some really useful and interesting history here. It's topics like this that have made me a semi-regular viewer of this forum for years. The choose a modern poll was the thing that made me finally take the plunge and actually register for an account. I have always thought of the M60A2 as an interesting, failed experiment. It definitely seems like more of a theory vs. reality vehicle- in theory it sounds like it could be a good idea, in reality it probably didn't play out as well as hoped. The discussion here, and on the topic during the poll really brought up some great history of the A2 and its deployment.

Thanks for keeping it interesting!