First civillians ...

[voltigeur]

WOW I go climbing and camping for 2 days and look wnat you did!

A mundane commet on Friday morning became such a fire storm.

I pesonally don't see near the problem with having civilians on the battlefield as having dismembered casualties. At least with civilians they are essential to having a realistic insurgency game. Battle don't happen in a vacum and we fight where we live.

If you use chits for hidden units throw in the idea that a few will be enemy and a few will be dummy and some will be civilian and then you actually start playing more realistically and more humainly.

In Vietnam the US had over whelming fire superiority. The only way to balance that in a realistic way is to put the American player in a position where he can't use it. I have a much bigger problem with blood and gore just for the visual. (Not critisizing those that do)

For anyone who is playing wargames to learn from, has to consider civilians. If you just want unarmed targets then your sickness and gutlessness goes way beyond the game table.

Just a random thought: Maybe after this discussion GHQ can put out the Earps and Clantons! Then we can assign names to the figers based on who we want to shoot.

[GHQ]

OK, let's have everyone take a time out and calm down. One thing that we have always strived for on this forum is to keep everything civil and informative. Over the lst couple years we have managed to avoid the name calling that is found on many other bulletin boards and forums, and we will keep it that way.

Here is why we have released civilian figures (most of this has already been covered in several previous posts, but it may help to hear it directly from GHQ). The civilians were some of the most requested figures. In all of the requests that we received, not one mentioned civilian figures for use as targets. All of the requests that included any explanations mentioned the strategic reasons. Especially in modern battles and skirmishes the presence civilians is a factor that frequently exists. The presence of these civilians greatly changes the strategy of the situations. Many of you have probably noticed that we have made a huge push in our Vietnam offerings- more miniatures, USA, VC, NVA figures, more aircraft, the Vietnam supplement, tropical buildings, the fortification parts, etc. We feel that the presence of civilians was a major factor in that war for both sides. We also feel that the presence of civilians in the current war in Iraq is a major factor, and that is why our next civilian pack will be people from that area. We are not going to be releasing Jews with stars, figures with graphic headshots, etc.

The civilian packs may not be for everyone, and that is OK. Whether you like them or not, please keep the name calling off of our forum.

Thank you,
GHQ

[jpo]

I for one am happy that GHQ is putting out civilian figures. Currently all I have are irregular miniatures' rioters and civilians to represent nonviolent protesters for my game of nonviolent direct activists vs police/military. Version 2 is on hiatus until after Nov 7th.

I hope we see some US/European civilian figures in 2007, esp. some on bicycles.

On Ulrich's statements I have no comment since I was denied the opportunity to read it.

[robdab]

CAMA, please accept my apology for misreading your moniker. I had the resolution set so small on my monitor that I mistook the "m" in your handle for an "rn" combination. Sorry.

JPO, to their credit GHQ has NOT deleted any of Ulrichww's comments. You'll just have to go back thru the previous three pages to read them.

To get back on topic, I'd like to compliment GHQ on their water buffalo (they call it a water bison but I've always heard them refered to as water buffalo) model included with their vietnamese civilians set. I am reminded of a just such a Thai beast that knocked me off of my new motorcycle, chased me up a tree and then kept me there for three full hours, in the blazing hot sun, while it systematically stomped my new bike, flat.

It saved the headlight till the very last, looked me right in the eye, crushed the light with its hind hoof, crapped on the wreckage and then scampered off into a rice paddie. That animal was pure evil.

[Der Kommandeur]

robdab: You now have everything you need in the GHQ range to start a (very) small diorama of that incident

GHQ: Though I'm sure your planning for the Middle Eastern set is sure to be well advanced I'm hoping camels and goats will be included.

robdab: For the record, I have never been traumatised by either a camel or a goat

[robdab]

... but, did you ever want to be ?

And are middle eastern camels one humped or two ?

I'm hoping that the middle eastern set will include a donkey cart, a tour bus, a heavy civilian style cargo truck and tanker truck and a few pick-up trucks that could be converted into "technicals". And lets not forget a battered Mercedes sedan or two or three.

Maybe GHQ should do a seperate "civilian cars and trucks" pack. Can we start an informal poll to see what level of interest there is in such an idea ?

I'd also like a WW2 "civilian car and truck" pack as well.

[Der Kommandeur]

"... but, did you ever want to be ?"

Err ... No ... Not really ... Not ever!

WWII civillian vehicles would be good ... but difficult to do as a generic set I would have thought.

Perhaps there are some that could be either civillian vehicles or military staff cars, eg the Humber Snipe, which might widen the appeal?

DK

[Der Kommandeur]

Oh! ... And I forgot to add ... Arabian camels have one hump (Dromedary) and Asian camels have two (Bactrian).

Dunno about goats (obviously I know they don't have humps, just don't know about the variations in the species).

I can say a little about donkeys though ... according to a programme I heard on BBC Radio 4 a few weeks back, Shrek's wise-crackin' sidekick increased the popularity of donkeys as pets in the UK by some margin. Apparently they are more intelligent than dogs and they only seem to be stubborn because they are actually thinking about what they are being urged to do.

DK

[robdab]

Oh NO ! I can see it now ... a massed attack on a marketplace by a herd of thinking, suicide donkeys !! Oh, the Horror, the Horror...

Alright, alright, I've already slapped myself for that one.

What about a set of farm equipment in 1/285 ? I'm thinking a range of tractors, with and without plows, combine and horsedrawn harvestors etc for Napoleonic, Modern and WW2 tabletops with some well sculpted farm workers to go with them ? I know that one of those "other companies" already sells sheep, cows, horses and Amerian Bison but i don't know of any farm tractors being available ?

There was a set of modern-ish road construction equipment made but I believe that company has since joined with the dodo and the passenger pigeon in extinction ? Put another way, they've shuffled off this mortal coil, they're pushing up daisies, they've attended the last roundup or maybe they are merely resting as does the Norwegian Blue ? Anyway, a road grader, a bulldozer or two, some tandem and single axle dump trucks, a road roller and a tracked excavator could hardly go amis now, could they ?

[Ben]

Hi all!

Hui, this topic saw some escalation... oh dear.
From my point of view the civilians are a nice addition to the variety of models available from GHQ.
At the moment I am just a collector (okay I paint my models but my modelling skills are not very sophisticated) and see many options to place the civilians in small scenes (as some of the modellers already mentioned). If European civis become available I will buy some for my barracks (used for my modern UK forces). The Vietnamese civilians do not fit in very well but maybe I can order some buffalos seperately, could be used as Regimental mascot .

When it comes to gaming - I have no idea... I would like to practise some "Conflict Simulation" but the lack of time doesn't let me, furthermore it is even harder to find time when the friends have to find time as well.

Best greetings,
Ben

PS: Modern road construction equipment - a very good !

[Der Kommandeur]

Hi All

Just been re-reading robdab's post above ... and it reminded me of something Donald Featherstone wrote.

I count myself lucky enough to have (among some of his other titles) "Tank Battles in Miniature: 1 A wargamer's guide to the Western Desert Campaign 1940–1942" and "Tank Battles in Miniature: 4 A wargamer's guide to the Mediterranean Campaigns 1943–1945". Published in 1976 and 1977 respectively, both are in excellent condition.

Featherstone, a veteran of the WWII Tunisian and Italian campaigns (he served in Churchills with 51st RTR) saw fit to include a chapter – just over three pages – on 'brewing-up' in the first volume, to put the reader in the picture (and here we're not takling about the preparation of a beverage). This amongst chapters on terrain, visibility, navigation (in the desert this is rather like being at sea), communications and logistics. To my mind context is all, and these little books made a serious attempt to cover all aspects of simulating armoured warefare in these theatres.

Does anyone else here know these books or have them? They are two of a four series set dedicated to micro armour gaming, which was still pretty new then. The other two, by Bruce Quarrie, covered NW European Campaign 1944-45 and Russian Campaign 1941-45. I also still have some old Modelworld and Airfix magazines from the '70s with examples of the press adverts GHQ were running back then.

I don't know how familiar you all are with Featherstone's work, but he almost single-handedly raised the profile of wargaming in the UK in the 1970s. Now I'm feeling old!

I don't know if he is still alive ... I heard he suffered a heart attack a couple of years ago.

BTW: I'm not going anywhere in particular with this, but perhaps it is of interest.

DK

[hobby-bob]

I'm working on a set of rules to use with Microarmor: The Game. "Autonomous Dynamic Terrain,â€￾ or ADT. ADT can come in the form of railroad equipment (civilian passenger or freight trains, troop trains, military trains, hospital trains, and armored trains), military convoys, either motorized or horse-drawn, and civilians, either individuals or refugee columns.

My rules generate random numbers and types of ADT, depending on the static terrain. Players must make a decision, particularly with respect to the railroad ADT, whether or not to attack (as in the real world, commands may not be able to tell on the face of things whether or not a potential target is hostile). I’ve set up tables to determine the effect of the attack on the player’s victory points: for example, if an allied player attacks a passenger train, and it turns out to be civilian only, the player could lose 75% of his or her victory points. These tables take into account who is doing the firing, and where the combat takes place (in friendly vs. enemy territory).

The rules also take into account deliberately firing into refugee columns to scatter them and slow an opponent’s forces. Naturally, this also could have an impact on victory points, depending on the nations the players are representing.

I just thought I’d toss this into the discussion.

[robdab]

Well, that last posting is going to "put the cat amongst the pigeons" once again.

Please, lets all just ignore it.

[robdab]

Gents, does anyone make modern civilian light aircraft in 1/285 or 1/300 ?

I'm NOT asking about airliners or large military cargolifters but rather light civilian planes such as Cessna 172s, a Lear private business jet, a grumman Goose seaplane, dehaviland Beaver or Otter floatplanes, a Lockheed Electra, a Piper Cherroche or a Twin Commanche ?

I'd like some civilian models for a military supported drug raid scenario on a "bush strip" airfield or even for an airport located on the outskirts of a largish city.