Pete's Place

[pmskaar]

Thanks very much Hoth and Chris! I appreciate it.

Hoth, my Russian Front Panzer IIIs are a mix of Ls,Ms, and Ns. The Ms were actually the least numerous in terms of production of the later Pz IIIs with only about 250 produced vs 653 for the L and over 1000 for the late J model with the early J with the short 50 produced in the greatest numbers at over 1500.

Some of my Ls, may actually be the late J type but I don't think anyone really knows exactly how many of each specific type there were in a unit. The N was produced using both the L and M hull and even some J hulls early on with the L type hull being the most numerous. I depicted my Panzer IIINs with both L and M hull types in my units.





Here are two pictures of a Pz IIIM and Pz IIIN crossing a CinC wooden bridge I painted a couple years ago. The Panzer IIIN shown depicts the L hull.

[redleg]

Those are beautiful Pete!

[Hoth_902]

Pete,

Looks like I need to do some research. I like how you mix and match, which I think is way more realistic. Most of what I have right now is PZIII F/Gs, Js, Ms with and without side skirts, and just bought some L and Ns with no side skirts. The L and Ns are the ones with the 50mm and the short 75. I Think I will put together a company of Ms with the Ls and Ns with out sides skirts. Does that seem like a viable mix of PZIIIs? that will give a mix of 50mm L and Ms and then a handful of 75 mm.

What is a good source of some samples of an actual company in combat. I know there is the generic TO&E, but that is rarely the same in combat.

By the way, though I have seen those pics before, but man o man they look good. I am slowly digging out of our move and get my hobby area set up. Got my recent order of PZIIIs on the way. Hope to have every thing dug out in a week or two.

[pmskaar]

Thank you very much, Redleg and Hoth!

Hoth, I modeled my unit on 6th Panzer Division at Kursk. For my main reference, I used III. Pz. Korps at KURSK by Didier Lodieu which is a Histoire and Collections book.

At the time of Kursk, 6th Panzer only had 1 tank battalion for the 11th Regiment which was the II Abteilung/Pz Rgt. 11 commanded by Major Bake. I have modeled the Panzer IIIs in 5th and 6th Companies so far.

The listing for 5th Company lists the following:
4 Pz III(75mm)
6 Pz IV(75mm)
10 Pz III(50mm)

The listing for the 6th Company lists the following:
4 Pz III(75mm)
7 Pz IV(75mm)
8 Pz III(50mm)

I can't tell you how many of each type of Panzer III(50mm) there were in regards to J, L, or M. I can't tell you how exactly each company numbered their vehicles as I don't have that information either.

I did number my Panzer IIIs but don't know if it is correct or not. I also put my Panzer IIINs in a separate platoon from the other Panzer IIIs.

The Panzer forces were in a state of flux in organization in 1943 as in this case. You had Panzer IIIs and IVs mixed in the same company as more Panzer IVs were coming in and the Panzer III was on its way out. I assume the 1st Battalion was off training up on the new Panther tanks but don't know for sure.
It appears the 2nd Battalion was slightly larger than normal and the 7th and 8th Companies had a couple more Panzer IVs with the 8th Company also having 13 Flammpanzers.

The organization for the 7th and 19 Panzer Divisions was not identical to the 6th.

The III Pz. Korps was also supported by the 503rd Schwere Abteilung (Tigers). I am also modeling part of this unit as well.

When I began this project, I already had some Panzer IIIL/Ns and Ms without the sideskirts but had bought a bunch of Ls, Ms, and Ns with sideskirts so was able to do some mixing and matching.

I will try to take some more photos over the next few days to show the variations I put into my Panzer IIIs. I'm glad you like them.







Here are a few more pictures of my Panzer IIIs and one with some Panzer IVs as well.

[Mortis57]

Not sure if this is of any help in regards to Panzers IIIs in 6th Panzer Division.

German Order of Battle - Panzers and Artillery in World War II
George F. Nafziger
page 64


Osprey Vanguard 28 - The 6th Panzer Division 1937-45
Oberst a.D. Helmut Ritgen
page 29


Author's Bio excerpt


Panzertruppen: 1943-1945 v. 2: The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany’s Tank Force
Thomas L. Jentz
page 52

[pmskaar]

That is very good information, Gazza! Thanks for that.

It is interesting that the Panzer IVs and Panzer IIINs were mixed into the various other Panzer III platoons rather than each having its own platoon. Also, some platoons had 6 tanks while others had 5.

A question would be that is this the exact same organization almost 3 months later during Kursk or not. I obviously don't know the answer to that one.

[Mortis57]

That is very good information, Gazza! Thanks for that.

It is interesting that the Panzer IVs and Panzer IIINs were mixed into the various other Panzer III platoons rather than each having its own platoon. Also, some platoons had 6 tanks while others had 5.

Now, as a disclaimer, I was never in the army (or any service) but I suspect that (for the Germans at least) the official TO&E were hardly ever 100% accurate and that forces in theatre had to make do and mend with whatever was available

A question would be that is this the exact same organization almost 3 months later during Kursk or not. I obviously don't know the answer to that one.

Almost certainly not. I doubt that German tank strengths (and hence organisation) were the same day to day never mind month to month. The first of the extracts above is dated 1st July '43 but it doesn't go down to platoon level.

Here's another extract. This time it's an overview of the tanks of Army Group South - not much use for organisational purposes but it does give the number of Panzers in 6th Panzer Division:
Osprey Campaign #305 - Kursk 1943 - The Southern Front
Robert Forczyk
page 24

Note: The 'Other' tanks of Das Reich were T-34s

Just to complete the picture, here the German tank numbers for the Northern Front (Osprey Campaign #272)

[chrisswim]

Pete, beautiful camo on the tanks.
I like that bridge, it’s seems that I have the same bridge. I don’t know how, but it’s true.

[pmskaar]

Thanks very much, again, Gazza for the information. I have the 2 volume set of Panzertruppen books which also give some data on what divisions had what type tanks and how many but you can never get enough of this kind of stuff. At least I can't.

Thanks very much, Chris! The bridge is an old CinC bridge. I currently have 2 that are painted and about 2 more plus the extensions to cross larger rivers on the game table. Overall I like them but I also have some resin bridges and GHQ pewter bridges as well. Back in 2021 I decided to build 4 bridges so that I had bridges in addition to some fords for my smaller river/stream hexes.



Here is the GHQ small stone bridge I did about the same time.

[Hoth_902]

Mortis57,

Great collection of information. It helps me alot set up some companies around 1943 time frame. What I like the most is the information that shows how many tanks were in a unit on that date. on the 17 of April, 1943, 11 regiment had about 17 to 19 tanks per company.. Now I know that when in combat, these numbers can increase and decrease based on tanks being knocked out for both maintenance and enemy fire.. But its a far cry from the depleted companies that my war game group always has the Germans fight at. I played one game where two companies only had about 4 to 5 tanks and one company that was close to 10.. My poor internet skills have turned up very little to validate my position that it was not always the case. Even worse is that my hard copy references are lacking in this level of detail. I need to work on that. I will have to look into picking up one of these references you mention. That aside, I have the following questions.

1. What is meant by Lg and 7.5? I am assuming that "lg" reference to Long barrel 50 mm gun on the PZIII and the 7.5 is the short barrel 75 mm on the PZIII. Then on the PZIV, I would assume "lg" means long barrel 75mm.

2. When they list the how many PZIIIs, this is a mixture of all types of PZIIIs. So if I look at 5th company, platoon 1, it has 4 PZIIIs "lg". So could that be a PZIII F all the way to say a PZIII N, with and with out side skirts?

I am an a_n_a_l engineer so any time things are simple and general.. it makes my head spin.. Unless I want it to be vague and general.

[Hoth_902]

Pete,

Great looking tanks and bridges.. Amazing.

[Mortis57]

1. What is meant by Lg and 7.5? I am assuming that "lg" reference to Long barrel 50 mm gun on the PZIII and the 7.5 is the short barrel 75 mm on the PZIII. Then on the PZIV, I would assume "lg" means long barrel 75mm.

Yes, indeed, Lg = long (actually 'lange' in German) and 7.5 (in the case of a Pz III anyway) indicates the short barelled 75mm gun of the Ausf N. N.B. a 'k' would indicate 'kurtz' (short).

2. When they list the how many PZIIIs, this is a mixture of all types of PZIIIs. So if I look at 5th company, platoon 1, it has 4 PZIIIs "lg". So could that be a PZIII F all the way to say a PZIII N, with and with out side skirts?

Here's a summary of the various Panzer III marks giving the size of the main gun and the number produced.

Only the Ausfs J, L, and M would be considered as having 'lg' guns as their 50mm was longer than the 50mm on the G, H, and early J marks (the latter's would considered 'k'). So in your example 5th company, 1st platoon would have 4 Ausf J, L, or M Panzer IIIs. <edit #2> Given the production numbers, they're probably more likely to be Ausf Js or Ls as a lot more of them were produced than Ausf Ms.

I am an a_n_a_l engineer so any time things are simple and general.. it makes my head spin.. Unless I want it to be vague and general.

The problem is that the troops in the field didn't, for the most part, know/care the exact sub type of a given tank. To them, for example, a Panther was a Panther be it Ausf D, A, or G. And that doesn't even cover field repairs etc. were to get a vehicle combat ready an older (or newer) turret (from a wrecked panzer) might be mounted on an intact hull of a different mark. For example, a Pz IV Ausf H turret on a Pz IV Ausf D hull (not sure if that exact combination was possible - it's just an example of what could happen).

I hope that helps, even a little bit.

<edit #1> Apologies to Pete for briefly hijacking his thread.

[Mortis57]

I was going to add this as edit 3 to the previous post before deciding that the edits were beginning to get complicated.

There's a chap by the name of Mark Bevis who has his own range of Micromark army lists. They're avaliable at the Wargames Vault website. He started off with the usual generic lists seen in most places, but more recently has started to produce lists of specific units. Individually they're fairly cheap but as he dpoes over 3000 lists it could get rather expensive . Here are a few examples:

G584 Kampfgruppe Conrath, Hermann Goring Panzer Division, Sicily, 9th Jul’43
G585 Kampfgruppe Schmalz, Hermann Goring Panzer Division, Sicily, 9th Jul’43
G590 Kampfgruppe Schmalz, Hermann Goring Panzer Division, Sicily, 10th-12th Jul’43
G591 26th Panzer Division, Italy, Sept-Dec’43
G592 65th Infantry Division, Italy, Sept-Dec’43
G593 400th Army Motorised Recce Bttn, Italy, Sept’43-Apr’45
G594 382nd Panzer Grenadier Regt, Sicily, Italy, Jul-Dec’43

Whilst I use them myself, I can't 100% confirm their accuracy. I assume that they're as accurate as the data he has available allows.

He is/was a member of this forum (Sultanbev) but his last post was in Feb 2017.

[sultanbev]

Thanks for the mention, am still around, 2017 since my last post 6 years ago wow.
Probably because I've switched to 10mm for all my wargaming, and have been selling off both 6mm and 15mm wargames stuff. N guage model rail scenery and 3d printing have revolutionised things a bit.

As regards MicroMark army lists, yes, I made a decision some years ago to do specific named/numbered lists only where possible. For example I've done all the German kampfgruppes at Arnhem pretty much. So it is a lot more lists, but much more detail in many cases. A lot more information is available now than when I started in the 1990s, and some of the generic lists are a bit dated. Kursk 1943 is one area where I've not updated my lists, have been more interested in the Sicily/Italy theatre of late, and 1950s Cold War.

The advantage of the Wargames Vault set up is that if you remain registered on their site, you get updates to lists for free, as it is quite easy for me to update them as and when I get new information.

One of the new features has been the American Aggressor nations lists from the 1950s (so far) - I see from the forum there is much interest in Imagi-nations, so these could be ideal for those that like that sort of thing.

Mark

[Hoth_902]

Mortis57,

Really great information. That all seems to be inline with what Pete has stated in the past. Not that I was trying to get a second opinion. Since I am probably not going to build a specific unit, from history, I have a little bit of flexibility in the variations and make up. Also, since they varied over time, there is no telling what is 100 percent correct. I think I will base my 1943 units around what you have posted here. I can play with the numbers a little but for the most part its a good basis for building a unit.

sultanbev,
I might have to take a look at your stuff.