GHQ Models Forums

Gentlemen.

What are the Hotchkiss H-39 and H-40 models? I could well be wrong (it's been known to happen), but from what I can make out the H-39 model is the H-35 with the 37mm/L21 and the H-40 is the H-39 with the 37mm/L33. Does that sound about right?

Also, I've heard that the ones with the /L33 were deployed a little like 17pdr tanks for the British; assigned to H-35 sqns, rather than in units of their own. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Oh well.... gives me something else to round out the truck and 105mm gun order for some time in the future. After the Germans to fight the others...

Speaking of little tanks in France; what was leftenant Grübers little tank?

Mike

Mickel wrote:Gentlemen.

What are the Hotchkiss H-39 and H-40 models? I could well be wrong (it's been known to happen), but from what I can make out the H-39 model is the H-35 with the 37mm/L21 and the H-40 is the H-39 with the 37mm/L33. Does that sound about right?

Not quite. The H-39 was produced with both weapons depending upon availability, it also differed from the H-35 in having a more powerful engine and revised rear hull to accommodate it. The French did not generally use the H-40 designation, but others may be using it to distinguish between L21(SA18) and L33 (SA38) versions of the H-39. More info can be found here:

http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/ ... ss_h39.htm

http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/ ... ss_h35.htm

Also, I've heard that the ones with the /L33 were deployed a little like 17pdr tanks for the British; assigned to H-35 sqns, rather than in units of their own. Can anyone confirm or deny?Mike

AFAIK, the H-35 and H-39 were not usually mixed within the same units. Most all French TO+E I have seen make clear distinction between the two types. An excellent site for 1940 French TO+E data can be found here:

http://alain.adam.perso.cegetel.net/index2.htm

David

From my own readings I believe HMSDavid is correct on all points.

It does not appear that the H35 and the H39 were typicallyy mixed in units. The main issue determining their assignment, as I understand it, was the automotive differences between the two, rather than the gun.

I suppose it could have been a question of commonality of engine parts and maintenance, but I think it was more a question of the differing speeds between the two models. H35 was designed to be a lower-cost "cavalry tank". But its low speed hampered its ability to operate with the S35s of the DLMs (Division Legere Mechanique: Light Mech Divisions). The H39 upgrade remedied this (it actually surpassed the road speed of the S35, although I am not so sure about how they ranked on cross country performance). So H35s and H39s seem to have been rarely mixed. H35s were more commonly the equipment of independant divisional cavalry units, while H39s were the preferred mounts of the DLMs (Well, actually S35s were, but they were never purchased for more than 1/2 the DLM requirements. So H39s were the preferred complement.).

That said, it appears that the two models of 37mm gun WERE mixed within H39 units. The L33 was the preferred gun, but was not available in suffient numbers for all of the H39s being built. So tanks with the shorter gun were present within the H39 units. It was not entirely common, though, as tank units tended to equip (or re-equip) all at once, and whatever the factory had that week (or that month) was what they got. So some units got mostly L21s, and some got mostly L33s. Evidently the L33 availability improved over the production life of the tank, so later units had mostly L33s.

Or so I've read.

Thank you Gentlemen

As Mickel originally asked:

What are the Hotchkiss H-39 and H-40 models?

I am left feeling that I have managed mostly to satisfy my own personal need to yammer away about French tanks, while HMSDidactic did a better job giving you what you were looking for ... so I suppose I should go back to your original question.

If you are asking specifically about the tanks in the GHQ online catalog (a reasonable interpretation of your question), I would suggest you consider the tanks thus:

GHQ #FR3 "Hotchkiss H-39" is a Hotchkiss H-39, just as advertised. It happens to be an H-39 with the short SA18 L21 gun. The visual identifiers are:
1) Three double-bogies per side, and driver's hatch on the right (left as you face the tank) identify it as a Hotchkiss design. The Renaut tanks had 2 1/2 double bogies per side, and the driver's hatch on the left (right as you face the tank).
2) The horizontal rear engine deck identifies it as an H-39. The H-35 had a sloping rear engine deck. If you compare the visual profile of the two Hotchkiss tanks, and the Hotchkiss vs. the Renaults, the H-35 stands out as visually quite distict in this regard. GHQ does not offer an H-35.

GHQ #FR9 "Hotchkiss H-40" is a Hotchkiss H-39 with the longer SA38 L33 gun. It has all the same visual identifiers as the H-39, but a longer barrel. One might choose to call it an H-40 if desired, I suppose. But I have never seen the term used by French histories.

GHQ #FR8 "Renault R-39" appears to be a Renault R-40. The term R-40 was used in some French histories to refer to the Renault tanks when they were upgraded to the SA38 L33 gun. This may be one reason to refer to an upgunned H-39 as an H-40. But some other sources refer to upgunned R-35s as just improved R-35s (I believe they refer to the same tank.) This tank was actually pretty rare, as Hotchkiss production was given priority for the SA38 guns. The online catalog photo shows the visual identifiers of the Renault tanks to good effect. 2 1/2 double bogies per side, and the driver's hatch on the left (right as you face the tank).

GHQ #FR5 "Renault R-35" listed in the catalog is, I believe, a Renault R-35. That is to say, if you order #FR5, I believe you get R-35s. I have some GHQ R-35s. They are quite nice models. I believe they are #FR5s. BUT ... the photo on the web catalog shows H-39s, NOT R-35s. The bogies and the driver's hatches are visible. It is an understandable mistake to make, as these are very small tanks, the turrets are identical, and the general shape of the hulls is very similar. But it looks like someone goofed on judging what they had in the picture.

HMSDipotasiumphosphate and I hashed this through together some time last year, and I believe this was the conclusion we came to at that time.

If you are asking specifically about the tanks in the GHQ online catalog (a reasonable interpretation of your question), I would suggest you consider the tanks thus:

Oops... yeah, that was the idea, but I wasn't entirely clear.

Sadly, my recognition of French tanks is pretty much limited to the Char B1, S-35 and FT-17. I've got what are labelled as R-35s all painted up and ready for base flocking, S-35s on the painting table, and H-39s & Char B1s in a box, hopefully on this side of the pond by now.

From your description the R-35s I have here are certainly Renaults with the 2½ double bogies. Yes... very small tanks.

Thanks Mark