GHQ Models Forums

I know they've been brought up in the past, but I was wondering, amongst all of us wargamers and collectors, what is the level of interest in having Armed Merchant Cruisers (AMC's) available as miniatures?

AMC's were used extensively in both world wars. The British seem to have used ocean liners/passenger ships and pressed them into service as auxiallary cruisers. The British ones also tended to double as troopships (an additional plus). The Germans seem to have taken fast freighters and pressed them into service as commerce raiders. Looking at the quality of equipment given them, the Germans seem to have put more stake in them since theirs typically had modern guns, torpedo tubes, and in WW2, they had float planes as well, while their British counterparts were equipped with older weapons taken from storage.

I know GHQ can only produce a few ships a year, so I guess the real question is, would you be willing to have some of that limited production capacity put towards ships that are not pure warships such as AMC's and merchantmen? I for one am greatly in favor of expanding the collection GHQ has produced to include more of these.

I did some research and some good candidates for consideration would be as follows:
British:
HMS Otranto - an Orient Steam Navigation Company passenger/mail carrier, she saw extensive service in WW1 and fought in the Battle of Coronel. She also had four sisters (Otway, Osterley, Orsova, and Orvieto), all of whom were pressed into service in various roles.
HMS Rawalpindi - a P&O Steam Navigation company ocean liner before the war, she and her three sisters (Raiputana, Ranchi and Ranpura) were immediately converted into AMC's, with Rawalpindi being sunk by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau 11/3/39, Raiputana was sunk 4/13/41, Ranchi converted to a troopship in 1943, and Ranpura converted to a repair ship in 1944.
HMS Jervis Bay - an Australian Commonwealth Line passenger-cargo liner before the war, she and two of her four sisters (Esperance Bay (originally named Hobsons Bay) and Moreton Bay) were converted into AMC's in 1940. Jervis Bay had the great misfortune of acting as sole escort for convoy HX84 when it was discovered by the pocket battleship Admiral Scheer on 11/5/40. There are a couple of great new books about the Jervis Bay out right now. The other two were converted into troopships in 1941. I don't know why Largs Bay and Arawa (originally named Esperance Bay) were not converted.

German:
Atlantis - the most successful AMC, she sank or captured 22 ships totalling 145,697 tons until finally engaged by HMS Devonshire on 11/22/41.
Pinquin - the second most successful AMC, she sank or captured 17 ships plus an entire Norwegian whaling fleet (11 ships) totaling 136,551 tons until she was sunk by HMS Cornwall on 5/8/41.
Kormoran - she sank 11 ships before she was engaged by HMAS Sydney and both sank in the ensuing battle.
Thor - sank 11 ships and did battle with three different British AMC's.

These types of ships add an exciting dimension to naval wargaming - especially when you get into the campaign games, and I personally would like to see GHQ start building these - maybe one a year - to add some great flavor to a great collection.

Let me know what you think.

Chris

Probably just one for each country would be enough.

My club enjoys Naval gaming, but these models are too esoteric for our club. We tend to shy away from very-limited-use models, preferring to have a nice stable of common ships making it easy to set up some quick games.

YMMV

With respect to "The British ones (AMCs) also tended to double as troopships"
During WW II, the British converted a number of commercial liners into AMCs because they anticipated that the Germans would likewise convert some of thier fast liners into raiders. At that time, the British needed armed ships capable of taking on armed merchant ships and did not have sufficient cruisers (a better soution) to meet all the demands.
As soon as the threat of German raiders was defeated, almost all the surviving AMCs were converted to troop transports. By the middle of the war there were sufficient cruisers to perform their role and the need for troop transports was much greater.
To the best of my knowledge, no ship ever functioned as both an AMC and as a troop transport at the same time. An AMC was expected to place itself in hazard (i.e., between a convoy and an attacking raider). This would not be a logical action for a ship carrying over a thousand troops.

Don Scheef

Don,

When I said that they doubled as troop transports I meant that later - typically after 1941 when AMC's were no longer needed. When I was researching this, it seems that they were vital to the war effort throughout their careers - first as AMC's and then later to transport troops from all over the world.

Chris

Chris,

Perhaps the best solution would be for GHQ to manufacturer a common transport for every belligerent nation rather than making specific ships. Many of the raiders were able to change much of their appearance making a specific ship profile not as important as the general characteristics... It would not be easy to convert the model during a game in this scale unless you had the two versions built, one to replace the other. Just a little more money. Perhaps you might think about this kind of gaming in 1/600 scale or in 1/1200 scale where the models exist already if you wish to go to that level of detail during a game.

From the marketing side I would not think there would be much of a requirement for the specific raider, but there could be for the merchant vessels, or perhaps one generic raider model in both versions. The cost of an original for such a limited market could far exceed potential sales, ...but none the less would make an interesting option for gaming and collecting purposes.

We have gamed this portion of the war with existing models, since very few can see the difference in this scale on the table...

Will

That's what I've been doing so far is using the existing merchant ships GHQ sells to represent AMC's. Of course, just as I like to see all the non-combat and auxilliary vehicles in my land armies, it is also very nice to have this flavor in the naval forces as well.

I understand completely... same here. We use every portion of the support network we can lay our hands on for the simulations we conduct and for convention games. Having all that detail available adds a level of realism to a game that really brings the players down to the actual level the commanders would see if they were there...





Detailing 1/2400 scale ships can be difficult, though the reward in realism and personal pride when your models are being used on a gaming table can be enjoyable... as well as a curse.

Will

I remember reading about the armed Mechant men especially for the German Navy. I have read that one or 2 of these could actually give a light Cruiser a good fight and could take on an escort destroyer pretty evenly. And not sure how usefull they would actually be in a game.

My tought is to do only the one maybe 2 of the most famous German ships with guns exposed. In the senario the approach would be with regular mechant ship models then switch them out as general quarters is sounded and rounds go down range.

This seems exciting on one hand. But then again if the game controller tells me to put 6 merchantmen and one of my destroyers on the table becasue I encountered a Brazilian container ship. Well that's a no brainer. (Sound General Quarters and have the CIC work up a solution.)

It would be like my carrier. If it ever goes on the table during a game, I have seriously screwed up.

Maybe GHQ could do a run of assorted civilian ships from each era. Heck, they're doing individual civilians, why not civilian ships? I think a wolf pack raiding scenario could be pretty interesting... U-boats out to scuttle or capture a convoy of ships.

Plus, they could be kit-bashed to make the AMCs!

voltigeur,

I think you're right about the AMCs (Armed Merchant Cruisers) -- but off-hand, I can only think of one example where an AMC actually sank a light cruiser. In World War II, the German AMC KOMORRAN sank the light cruiser HMAS SYDNEY. And as I recall, there are some "suspicious circumstances" about that action... don't recall the particulars, but I do know that the KOMORRAN eventually sank and her survivors were captured by Allied forces (Australian, I think). And if i recall correclty, they were all pretty "mum" on what happened to the SYDNEY -- as the story went, she was last seen disappearing over the horizon, very much on fire -- and SYDNEY disappeared, with no survivors nor little (if any) wreckage found. Speculation was that KOMORRAN waited until SYDNEY was "way in close" before showing her true colors and opening fire. And KOMORRAN still sank from the gunfire she received from SYDNEY. But what happened to the SYDNEY is one of the mysteries of World War II...

Regards,
Tom Stockton

On a similar vein to Kormoran vs Sydney, consider the fight between HMIS Bengal - a minesweeper armed with a single 4-inch gun - versus the Japanese raider Hokoku Maru. Hokoku M. was larger, faster and carried several 6-inch guns and torpedos. After receiving extensive damage, Bengal managed to land one lucky hit on a magazine of Hokoku M. The resulting explosion sank the Japanese ship.

Stier was an unlucky German raider. The demise of this ship is described as "Sunk by Liberty ship Stephen Hopkins."

Don Scheef

Another is the German AMC Thor which sank the British AMC HMS Voltaire on April 4, 1941. She also engaged two other British AMC's HMS Alcantara and HMS Carnarvon Castle beating off both of them. To me, these battles add a bit of excitement to naval warfare.

Since we are going to be doing a campaign game in my group, these ships will come in very handy on both sides for scouting and hunting - basically covering for the shortage of cruisers on both sides. We are going to be plotting ship movement in advance with an umpire determining when an engagement happens. So there will be plenty of opportunity for the types of battles that actually happened in WWII. Also, seeing that it is a campaign, commanders will be less likely to take risks and fight to the death, so expendable ships will be more important than they normally would in a one-off battle.

Will - great job on those ships, they look great!

Chris

Chris,

Thanks, I enjoy adding a little detail to the already fine models. The mast work is made from brush hairs (so they are somewhat flexible) which adds to their appearance and makes them easier to identify when trying to spot them at distance... I still like the old range estimate systems best...

I think I am going to convert a freighter to a "hunter" just to see how difficult it will be. I will post pictures in a couple of days...

Will

For a relatively complete listing of auxiliary cruisers in World War II, take a look at the most recent posting in Comprehensive Micronaut Wish List.

I will be getting to WW I auxiliary cruisers eventually, but this will take significant time. Auxiliary cruisers played a relatively larger role in this war.

Don Scheef