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WW2 Micro Where did you start

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:10 pm
by Rusty
Hi all

In my quest to try to decide the best way about collecting a Nation, i have to ask where did you start?

I have had a look over the Combat Commands and yes they seem really nice, but i dont know if thats where i want to start. I have it down to two time periods, and both involve British and German. The first one i have is Africa 1941-1942 onto Italy and Sicily. The second is 1944 just after the D-Day landings.

In both cases i want to build the British and Germans, in both periods i have the same problem i have extreme difficulties in painting Camouflage. At some point i am going to have to buckle down and practice, but i thought in the meantime im keen to hear how you started and how you went about building your selected Nation, did you just buy more models, or did you have a TO&E to go by and if you did how did you use it? 1:1 scale?.

Right over to you, after any advise that you can offer.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:16 pm
by Der Kommandeur
Hi Rusty

Well, I guess there will be many answers to this one, and all will be influenced or determined by one's temperament. FWIW I spent a coule of years researching my chosen theatre (N Africa/Tunisia 1942/43) and the ToE/OoB for the German and British formations I wanted to collect. As you probably know there are some really useful websites about this sort of thing, but books, in particular unit histories, have also proved invaluable. This research is ongoing as new info or sources come to light from time-to-time.

I selected a rule system very early on and, because I wanted to field brigade or divison sized units, I elected to collect at 1:5 (basically one vehicle/stand of figures = 1 troop/platoon). So there is an inevitable level of abstraction in the collection. Then I put in my first order and got stuck in! That was back in January 2004.

GHQ's Combat Command sets look like a great way to get you going pretty quickly, although I haven't bought any myself.

Regarding painting, one of the benefits of this theatre and period is that vehicles are, for the most part, in single colour schemes. Although some of my 8th Army units do have disruptive camouflage. Inevitably the quality of my painting has improved with practice and reference to work displayed on this site ... some of these guys really have encouraged me to raise the bar on my own efforts! Coupled with the sheer quality of GHQ's castings ... if they have gone to the trouble of casting it I feel I should have a crack at painting it! This has also meant that the very first miniatures I did have already been stripped and repainted.

My plan is for 21 Panzer Division in it's entirety (about half completed now), with supporting units such as 501 s.PzAbt (simply had to have some Tigers 8) ) and elements of Ramcke's Fallschirmjäger brigade (but those camouflaged smocks are hard to do). 8th Army units are represented by a couple of brigades: 4th Light Armoured (finished) and 201st Guards Motor Brigade (half done). I have just started on some 1st Army units, the main component of which will be 6th Armoured Division in its entirety, plus supporting units such as 48 RTR. This also provides a bit of relief from desert tones!

I want to add some Italians and a US Combat Command at some point, but have only just started the research for these ... so they could be a couple of years off ... just have to get the project completed before I go blind! :shock:

Good luck with your collecting.

DK

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:40 pm
by tstockton
Der Kommandeur,
just have to get the project completed before I go blind!
I hear ya, brother! First bifocals, now a magnifying headset when I paint those models... where will the madness end!? :shock: :lol:

Rusty,

An excellent question... I suppose you'll get nearly as many answers as there are gamers / modelers / collectors. As for myself -- I didn't start with a "plan". I'm much more a collector and modeler than a gamer... I just bought the ones that appealed to me the most at the time I bought them. I guess my "plan" now is to have one of each... of everything! There are a few packs I have multiples of, just 'cause I think they're really cool! But for most -- a pack of each is fine.

Kinda haphazard, I know... but I'm having fun with it -- and isn't that what a hobby is all about? And I've "rubbed elbows" with a lot of folks that are pretty cool at the same time, so that is another big plus!

Regards,
Tom Stockton

Americans

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:42 am
by ACWBill
I bought nine GHQ Shermans (75mm) in approx. 1976 as best I can remember. I still have them. My best friend bought 10 STUG III G the same day. We still have them. My collection was built around these over many years. We even bought individual GHQ infantry back then before they went to the "blocks o' infantry". We then collected Heroics/Ros infantry and then C in C until we discovered Adler. I literally have 2,000 + painted GHQ/C in C and Adler figures based for Spearhead. I have another 6,000 10mm ACW figures based for Fire & Fury. All the ACW have accumulated since 1995. See how quickly things get out of hand.

My advice - buy with a friend, pick a side you like and paint them as you go. If I had only done this I wouldn't have near as much unpainted lead as I do painted. A kind estimate, according to my lovely and patient spousal unit.

:roll:

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:04 am
by fullmetaljacket
I would suggest buy what you like first. My first purchase was Panthers. Then go from there. A lot of times it depends on the upcoming scenarios or events my group will be doing, which dictates some of my purchases. My two cents worth.

FMJ

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:46 am
by Rusty
Thanks for the advise so far. At the moment i would have to say that I am leaning towards the mid war period. I like the Late war but id rather start earlier. So at the moment i have three areas i have picked:

NWE (Maybe later on)
Africa
Russia

Both have their own interests to me, such as the History of the 7th Armoured Division and Rommel. For Russia would actually be the whole campain from the first invasion to the fight towards Berlin. Russia is an easy choice as until 43 all that the Germans used was Panzer Grey which makes painting a breaze, and well the Russian armour again very simple (Or as hard as i want to make it with the detail) :D

NWE i have seen the movies i have read the books, and again the history is rich and enjoyable. The Cromwells are probably one of my top favourite tanks in that period.

So i have to make the decision, at least i have a couple of days before the sale ends at GHQ 8)

If i am looking at introducing other gamers into the hobby, which one would you suggest?

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:02 am
by Mk 1
Rusty:

Much of the advice here is very good.

I started collecting with the Eastern Front. Go to any gaming con, and there will be Eastern Front scenarios going off. But the Western Desert is very popular too.

Tunisia is far less often gamed, and also less well known by popular history buffs.

I personally am a devotee of the Eastern Front. We've exchanged ideas on the Eastern Front before on a couple occasions. Allow me to give views on the Western Desert here.

Pro:
1) Easier to paint. Two tones of sand, one for Germans, one for Brits, and you have the key to painting the vehicles. Everything else is detailing, as/when you have the inclination.

2) A few basic vehicles go a long way. You can build a British formation around one of several vehicles. A core of Crusaders might be a good choice. You can build a German force around a core of Pz IIIs. You can get two versions of each, and thus have the ability to play earlier or later battles, and with mixed formations your later battles can be rather sizeable. Both of these vehicles served through the end of the Tunisian campaign, so you get some reach and variety in the scenarios you may want to game.

3) There are lots of very interesting vehicles you can put around your core. Crusaders are pretty interesting to start with. But then consider tossing in some Grants or Valentines. Or some Pz IIs, Marder IIs, or PzrJgr Is for the Germans. Or some of the many varieties of armored cars on either side. You can hardly run out of stuff to collect!

4) Your German tanks, at least, will be painted in a manner that still leaves most of them useable in an Eastern Front 1943 game if and when you happen upon one.

5) Terrain is easy. A tan felt cloth to cover a table, something to put under or on top for elevations, some masking tape for a road, 4 or 5 Arab style huts, and you're good for a game! Easy as can be.


Con:
1) British and Germans, but no Yankees. You may get the itch to play Americans at some time. IF you've done your Germans right, you can add some Americans for Tunisia. Or you could add some Italians. Come to think of it, this may be a pro rather than a con. More to collect in time.

2) The uniforms are painted for desert service, so unlike your German tanks, you may not want to use your infantry for double service in some other theater later.

3) No T-34s. Kind of puts a kabosh on the whole theater as a core collection for me. But you may not be so affected. :lol:


The suggestion of starting out with a friend is a great way to go. But sometimes it is hard to get someone else involved until you get them to play once or twice.

I have never tried to collect armies on both sides with equal zeal. I have always collected one side of a theater as my primary army. When I build an "opponant" army, it is usually far smaller in scale, and is done for the sake of introducing others to the hobby in the hope they will then go build their own armies to oppose me.

Some folks start out with a battle, a period, a campaign, or a ToE in mind. I did not start this way, nor do I start new armies (new nations, or new theaters for my existing national forces) this way. I build a core of units that can cover a reasonable variety of scenarios. I usually start around a core of a company or two at 1-to-1 unit scale, with a variety of platoon-sized re-inforcing / support units around that core.

For example, I dabbled in Western Desert before, some years back. I already had a company of Brit infantry (from WAAAYYY back in the mid-70s), so I acquired a Troop (Brit-speak for platoon) of Valentines and a battery of 25prds. That was fine for me to get going. Added a scratch-built 2pdr and some Bren carriers over time. If I were to jump in to do a Western Desert force today, I might start with a Squadron (Brit-talk for company) of Crusaders, with a troop or two of Crusader IIIs to give me legs into the later periods, a battery of 25pdrs Arty, a battery of 6pdr ATGs, and some infantry in trucks.

The more I like a theater/national force, the more companies I acquire in time. For example, my Italian forces now have a company of infantry, a company of M13s, a company of L6s, a company of AB41 armored cars, and a couple batteries of howitzers, AT guns, AA guns, etc.

My Soviet forces, on the other hand, consist of about 10 companies of T-34s of various models, about 6 or 8 companies of various SU SPGs, about 6 or 8 companies of KV and JS heavy tanks, a company each of BTs and T-26s, a company of T-37/T-40 amphibs, a company of T-60 light tanks, 2 companies of T-70 light tanks, a company of T-28s, a rifle battalion, an SMG battalion, a squadron (company) of cavalry, at least a dozen batteries of arty, AA, and AT guns, etc. etc. etc. I can field a force for almost any 1-to-1 scenario you want to come up with on the Eastern Front. But it took years to build up to that size.

Not that I urge you to do it my way. I've described my way only as an example. There are many ways to go about it. You have already seen here several other good examples.

The only thing I urge, is that you get in to the water! Don't just walk around the pool! Don't think you have to dive straight in to the deep end. Just put your foot in. Combat commands are a great way to start. Or just choose a tank you like and get a few. Pain't 'em up, see if you like the collecting side of the hobby. Start with some free rules (GHQ rules, or other free rules that have been discussed in these forums) to get a feel for the gaming side.

I've been hooked since 1974. Can't get enough. I remember riding across Europe as a teenage backpacker in 1979, looking out the train window as the German countryside rolled by, thinking about how I could model it and whether I had enough SU85s. :roll: It provides endless hours of entertainment if you've got a mind that bends in the right directions. Give a try, see if its right for you!

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:24 am
by cheese_99
I've just taken the plunge. :shock:

After a few years of playing Sci-fi and fantasy I started looking into 6mm "hard-core" sci-fi (i.e. Dirtside II) (have a new baby and don't have much space anymore).

But then, over the weekend, I played a big game of Command Decision (put on at the local store by one of the rule testers) and was hooked. I just ordered (for the germans) a 1944 Kampfgruppe, one pack of half tracks, and a pack of Panzer IV's. To oppose them, I've ordered a Soviet 1944 Command command with a platoon of T-34's.

Can't wait to start painting.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:16 pm
by 1ComOpsCtr
The whole African Campaign is perhaps the best place to start and perhaps the most fun because in the beginning everyone was pretty even. All belligerents are at the end of a long supply chain sharing the problems that causes, equipment similarities, and the varying nationalities with different motivations. Commonwealth troops, etc... All that means great fun for the gamers both in a campaign mode with large and small battles.

Enjoy...

Will

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:22 pm
by Rusty
MK 1, you always seem to offer top advise thank you. I can see where you are coming from, and most of this makes sence to me, i would normally just pick the force i like and i think the problem that i have had in the past and now is that im trying to do too many things at once.

Your right i should build my primary country and then build the other force as a secondry project. Russia is very popular and nearly everywhere i turn in HWG (Historical war gaming) i see it in one form or another.

To be honest i think that the British are going to be the primary force at the moment, with the Germans to follow on the next order.

Keep the great advise coming

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:16 pm
by Pitfall
Hey, don't forget the italians for your desert forces!

At El Alamein there were more Italian troops on the ground than Germans and Italian tanks outnumbered panzers by more than 2:1.

The early Italian tanks are a lot of fun to paint, too. THe M13s and M14s have big rivets all over which really stand out after they're drybrushed.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:50 pm
by BlackDragon
My rule of thumb is to buy some armor from each pdriod first. mid to late war, late war and a package or two of early war. I started in germany then branched out from there. Juat remember in most games the real serious pieces jadgtigers NS Jadgpathers are not very needed. 5 is usally enough.

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:40 am
by Mk 1
Pitfall posited:
The early Italian tanks are a lot of fun to paint, too. THe M13s and M14s have big rivets all over which really stand out after they're drybrushed.
Si si si, signore! Fun to paint, indeed!

Image
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But let us not forget the even earlier Italian stuff. The M11/39, and the little L3 tankettes!

Get some practice in on painting little bitty fiddly stuff, and have something to stand up to those evil British A13s and carriers!

Image

(Offered on the presumption that all the best threads feature pictures! :wink: )

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:43 am
by 1ComOpsCtr
When our group began gaming in micro-armor there were only limited tanks, more limited armored cars, and a very few guns. We photocopied overhead line drawings of support vehicles, infantry, and most other guns in scale to use to fill the gaps in our one-to-one Afrika Corps games primarily because of the influence of the Chicago area gamers I gamed with on Saturday nights while I was attending university. My friends Terry and Mike set up the whole theater on several hex map boards and conducted the campaign from start to finish (Avalon Hill style).

After moving south our group played convention games of the floor, and ran set simulations pitting players against a judge who had a script he must follow no matter what the gamer did to compare one player against the others. The games/conventions were pretty successful, but the games took a long time to play.

The only Italian tank at the time was the M13-40 (without rivets). We converted a couple into the Semovente 75mm SPG to give them a little more punch. The early German Mk III's and Crusader Mk I's fought their barrels off, as did many of the early 50's before I learned how to use a pin vice and piano wire.

As I noted in an earlier post, this period was the most fun for our group because of the variety of equipment it offered (almost all of it under gunned) and the fluid nature of the battles. Air power did not dominate, which made rules for AC fun, instead of difficult. There were few arguments about "effective range" vs "penetration power" and a simple fast set of rules worked just fine based on two d-6s. The only problem was there wasn't enough information available when we started, ...so we made some mistakes in TO&E, but no one really cared.

Now you have almost all of the equipment available including the Afrika Corps in shorts, and the Italians, Indians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc., etc... as well as many, many references regarding TO&E almost day to day for the whole campaign.

I guess my primary reason for recommending Africa is because it is a self contained campaign that can be run on many levels for the many months and years it took to fight. Early battles, ...to late battles provide the widest variety of equipment of any theater of the war. One-to-one scale battles, as well as large Platoon stand games are possible without spending a lot of money.

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:36 am
by Rusty
Well i think thanks to you guys, you have made me decide to start with the Afrika 8)

So i think that the best plan i have at the moment is to buy the Afrika Corps CC and the Comonwealth CC (41). Then the plan was to add another blister of Crusader I/II's and a Blister of Pz III F/G, i can always adjust the numbers accordingly and if the budget can stretch maybe a pack of 2 pounders or Portees for 42.

Thanks for the interesting feedback and advise :wink: