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I found this website about artillery doctrines for some major nations of WWII. I think it may be of interest to some of us WWII wargamers. It doesn't go into the greatest detail for calling in arty,but does give a good insight as to how to use it on the wargame table.
After clicking on the above link go to WWII,then artillery.

Hi jb

Do you know this one about the Royal Artillery:

http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/

Full of interesting stuff ... Nigel regularly makes insightful posts over on feldgrau.com ...

DK

I am only able to speak regarding the Soviet use of artillery. The Soviet section seems in line with my research. I have been focusing on the Soviet side of the Eastern Campaign over the last year and a half and am finally up to 1943. The only point I may question is the use of Soviet indirect fire for defence. I don't think the Soviets were advanced enough to do the calculations quickly enough to alter their fire. I would say that all indirect fire has to be pre planned, and of course direct fire can be altered as needed and allowed within the game system.

They have made some tremendous progress from 194, but still had a ways to go. Massed artillery was used in the later battles for Siniavino south of Leningrad in 42-43. Until finally they massed their artillery and targeted and registered the German strong points. The Soviets were good at infiltration and intelligence gathering. Anyway, they planned for a rolling barrage with the tanks and infantry following close behind. I beleive for the first time they also used dedicated direct artillery to take out enemy nests that still resisted after the main barrage moved deeper.

Most miniatures rules I think don't go into enough detail on each army. How do you create a set of rules for WWII without going into detail based on a country's doctrine? Most rules designers don't do this and just say generically this is the way artillery was used. Or any other arm for that matter. I think for any game system you want to use you have to tailor it with house rules to give you the feel for your scenario. I know I have to do that with every Eastern Front game I play. So sites like the one above are excellent sources.

Brian

How do you create a set of rules for WWII without going into detail based on a country's doctrine? Most rules designers don't do this and just say generically this is the way artillery was used.

The way that I deal with this is by organisation. For the Soviets both in WW2 and Modern they don't have a FO attached below regimental level. There is simply no one to ask for shifting fires. By the time you spend a turn talking ot each level of command the opportunity has been missed. So the Soviet player soon learns to pre plan missions. The artillery rules apply equaly. NATO on the other had has FO that can call directly to the firing battery bringing fire in the next turn. Giving NATO many more options by virtue of their chain of command and chain of communication.

Brian-Edmonton wrote: ...How do you create a set of rules for WWII without going into detail based on a country's doctrine? ...
Brian

I can reform my artillery rules to a more realistc feel from what I gathered on the site that I provided.
For instance the German artillery will be more acurate but will take a couple of turns to arrive. So in this instance I will lay our template where the fire is called.
For the US Army it would work a little different. Taking a dedicated FO to a given arty Bn, will work like the German one ,but will come in on the turn it is called and just as accurate. A modified die roll will be made for the initial call for fire if it is a line platoon leader or such. The template placement will also have a possible deviation. In my rules we simplify arty by making a request die roll. This roll takes into account calling for fire,adjusting effective rounds,and then communicating effective fire. I figure that a higher skilled warrior will have a more effective raport in such matters i.e. the modified die roll. If a succesful roll is made we then place a D6 with 3 pips lined up towards the FO. My templates have 3 possible angles for the lay of the template. The template has three Xs on them in 3 different locations. Roll a D10, 1-3, 4-6,and 7-0 will tell you wcich X to line up with the 3 pips of the D6 FO die.If we need to deviate a D6 placement we roll a D12 and a D4. The D12 will tell you on the clock (12 being north) method what direction to head with the D4 how many inches to place the D6 for template placement. I could even use the GW directional arrow die,but I just don't want to use it. Of course after placement we determine where the rounds have fallen and done thier business...
Soviet fire,well thats been basically said by everybody here. Of course there can be exceptions. Take for instance the battle(s) for Mameyev hill in Stalingrad. I always pictured this as an artillery duel. Both sides had artillery that was adjusted,and both sides were trying to take the hill to put FO's on it. So one could possibly adust the Soviets on a per scenario basis. I still would use adjusted fire for them from a battalion CP or higher, if they were allowed adjustable fire to begin with. Most of the time I think it should be preplanned,before table setup ,and no adjustment.

Brian-Edmonton also wrote: ...I think for any game system you want to use you have to tailor it with house rules to give you the feel for your scenario. I know I have to do that with every Eastern Front game I play. So sites like the one above are excellent sources.

Brian

Yes, I agree. The above staements of mine are just a few ideas. Keep in mind when you do make "house rules", make it playable. Example: red die facing north, made in OHIO on friday are the only roll allowed , on an even minute on the clock when rolled...

Gentlemen,

Calling for fire, no matter who does it or how advanced the system is, can never guarantee it will arrive when needed or on target if there isn't a correctable shot first observed by someone who knows what to do to correct an off target delivery, or if the fire has been preplanned it must have been tested prior to the actual event.

I am not talking about the rounds not arriving, ...or being too far off target. What I mean by my comments is just this... the rounds did not arrive when they needed to be there, ...either they were early or late, or they were just a little off so as to be not as effective as the player needing the interdiction when it was needed...

TIME is the only thing on a battlefield that can not be made up after it is lost... And in combat timing is everything.

Rules that don't take "chance" into account when dealing with communication aren't realistic, and can never be an accurate example of combat.

An American unit, with all the communication in the world, could still not always get the message through during WW 2. Even today there are communication problems that are unexplainable, with all the technological advances comm goes down at all the wrong times and for all the wrong reasons. During the 2003 race to Baghdad the Marine commanding General had to use his cell phone to issue unsecured orders because he could not get through any other way... WW 2 systems were worse, much worse. An excellent example is the British Para comm during the Arnhem debacle.

In our simulation and games there is always a comm roll prior to the request going through. A failure only delays the timing... the rounds still go down range, just not when they may be needed...and may not be cancelled unless another comm test is made, which can lead to problems in a danger close situation.


Will

1ComOpsCtr wrote:Gentlemen,

Calling for fire, no matter who does it or how advanced the system is, can never guarantee it will arrive when needed or on target if there isn't a correctable shot first observed by someone who knows what to do to correct an off target delivery, or if the fire has been preplanned it must have been tested prior to the actual event.

I am not talking about the rounds not arriving, ...or being too far off target. What I mean by my comments is just this... the rounds did not arrive when they needed to be there, ...either they were early or late, or they were just a little off so as to be not as effective as the player needing the interdiction when it was needed... Will

...thats why we have an artillery request die roll that starts off every attempted observed artillery fire request. This die roll takes into account many things that follow the sequince of an artilery fire mission. A successful roll means that you have done everything correct to "put" rounds on the target. But,even this doesn't guarantee that you are going to put the intended target out of commission. On the same token a "failed" die roll simply means that one or more of the fire request to BOT (Burst On Target) has failed ,and no effective fire has taken place. This could mean alot of things. Failed communication, target disappearing (the time thing),bad adjustment, wrong lay,expired phone card, etc,etc. It just takes one of these reasons to fail the mission So I'm really not concerned "gamewise" what happened,what concerns me is the effect. I think we can ,as gamers all agree to that.
We once had it where we actually tracked each round from each gun in a firing battery,man talk about long turns. I now use an artillery sequince that cuts the time down,has just as much effect,and overall is much more enjoyable.
As for Nationalities, I can adjust my rules to make them a simulation of each nations artillery doctrine ,and have a great time gaming without doing the "math" (or too much of it).

Calling for fire, no matter who does it or how advanced the system is, can never guarantee it will arrive when needed or on target if there isn't a correctable shot first observed by someone who knows what to do to correct an off target delivery, or if the fire has been preplanned it must have been tested prior to the actual event.

I didn't detail the requesting and approving of fires becasue I didn't want to turn my post into a book. In my artillery request rules therei s actually a chance the FO can call in his coordinates. Very small but it is there.

My point is that I try to always avoid rules where you are told you have to do something just because your Russian German or whatever. My point is that if you look at the historical organization of the armies when playing a good set of rules you will fall into pretty historical doctrines. And i find this true of all periods.

A non artillery example is the French not having radios in thier tanks. A good command and control rule that requires all nationalities to maintaim Line of Sight between units when not equiped with a radio will lead you to the kinds of cav charges that happened in 1940. If the rule set is good the same would happen to a Sherman unit that lost radio communication and had to rely on signal flags.

Good discussion. I really like GHQ's system in Micro Armou: The Game (MATG), using the optional artillery rules. You have to pre-plot indirect artillery fire - and some nations need to do it earlier than others: late war Brits & Americans move faster than other nations. Then you roll to see if the mission occurs, then again to see if it deviates - only then do you determine where it lands and what (if anything other than dirt) gets hurt. Infantry caught moving in the open is normally badly hurt. The system could be more complex, but it flows very well and, to my study, accurately reflects the real world.

Hrmm... I missed this thread the first time that it came around. Thanks spammers!

BTW, JB you mentioned that you were working on the arty templates for your system. Will we see them next time we come up to WI? I think it would be nifty to have different templates for the different nationalities...

Pitfall wrote:Hrmm... I missed this thread the first time that it came around. Thanks spammers!

BTW, JB you mentioned that you were working on the arty templates for your system. Will we see them next time we come up to WI? I think it would be nifty to have different templates for the different nationalities...

That's a big 10-4. I've had them made for a month now. I will give you guys some when you come up on the 24th.
Also did you guys have a preferance for the Japanese or US? If not we will make the choice tonight. Gotta make the plan you know

It doesn't really matter to me. The other guys might have preferences, though.