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I am going to expand my micro armor collection into the 6 Days War / Yom Kippur period. I'm trying get as much as I can afford to cover most situations/scenarios, but if something was considered a rare sight at that time (e.g. Panzer IV F2 for the Syrians in 1967) I'm not going to bother with it.

My question is regarding how common/rare are the following AFVs during those two wars:

AMX-13 in 1967?
JS-3 / T-10?
BTR-152? And would they be the closed top or open top version?
BTR-50?
SU-100/122/152?

And what kinds of recon vehicles (e.g. BRDM?) is common at that time?

taskforce58 wrote:I am going to expand my micro armor collection into the 6 Days War / Yom Kippur period. ...

My question is regarding how common/rare are the following AFVs during those two wars:

Going from memory here ... no sources with me at this moment, but IIRC:

AMX-13: used in about half of the Israeli armored recon units in 1967. Common, particularly on the Southern (Sinai and Gaza) front. Out of favor, and out of service except for emergency reserves, in 1973.

JS-3 / T-10: JS-3m (post-war update with mid-length side-skirts and expanded external stowage) was used by the Egyptians in a number of heavy tank battalions in 1967. Saw action in multiple engagements on the Southern front. Several were captured, and were available to the Israelis in 1973, but I've never heard of any in action in that war. No T-10s. A common mis-conception. T-10 was never exported by the Soviets.

BTR-152: Fairly common in service in 1967, although most pure infantry formations were in trucks rather than APCs. Mostly open-topped. BTR-60 replaced in front line service by 1973. BTR-152s were still in inventories in 1973 in fairly large numbers, and I am confident they were used, but I've never seen reference to it in action in that conflict.

BTR-50: Pretty widely present in infantry within armored formations, both on the Southern and Northern (Golan) fronts in 1967. Mostly open-topped. Also in service in 1973, primarily on the Southern (Sinai) front. Used extensively in the Suez crossing. Syrians largely replaced thier BTR-50s with BMP-1s on the Golan front.

SU-100/122/152: SU-100 saw some action in Egyptian hands in 1967. I believe it was present in Syrian forces as well, but I'm not sure. Perhaps still in inventories, but I don't think they saw any action in 1973. ISU-152 (not SU-152) was present in inventory in 1967, but I've never heard of it seeing action. Don't know about SU/ISU-122s.

Also worthy of note is that the T-34-85 was in service in reasonable numbers in 1967: about one T-34 for every two or three T-54/55s overall. The SU-100s were often assigned in support of the T-34 formations. For example at the battle of Abu-Aghelia, the Egyptian armor consisted of two battalions of T-34-85s supported by one battalion of SU-100s.

Again, all from memory. Hope that helps.

Each of the major Israeli commands/task forces had at least a battalion of AMX-13s. They might be considered rare on the Golan heights front, unless those from the Jordanian Front were transferred up there.

IS-3M – Egypt had about 100. One regiment of 21 tanks was with the 7th Inf Div at Rafah. About 60 were in the 125th Tk Bde/6th mech Div near Kuntilla. Egypt lost 73 of them in the ’67 war.

T-10 – some reports say Egypt had them, but they never left the Soviet advisors hands.

ISU-152 – Egypt had at least one regiment and small numbers were seen by the Israeli’s in ’67.

SU-100 – Egypt had an anti-tank company of 18 vehicles in each arm bde. Syria had less total # of them in their Army (but unsure of their unit make up).

The Israeli's also used BTR-50's in 1973 on the Sinai front (they were captured in 1967). I believe that approximately 100 were in use by the Israeli's. They were not succesful

As I understand it, the Israelis tried to use AMX-13s as tanks. As this is never what they were designed to be losses were significant.

Mike

Well, the AMX-13s are tanks, just lightly armoured tanks so they really couldn't slug it out with T-34/85s or T-54s, but they were used extensively. There was even one Israeli AMX-13 on the Jordanian front that took out 7 Jordanian M48s in a single attack.

BTW - a great book to get is -

The Heights of Courage - A Tank Leader's War on the Golan
by Avigdor Kahalani
1984 Greenwood Press
ISBN: 0-313-24543-6
ISSN: 0084-9251

Kahalani was a Centurion Battalion commander on the Golan heights in the '73 war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Kahalani

Its a great first hand small unit account of the fighting he and his unit took part in.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... of+courage

Hi TF-58,

As someone who follows the AIW wars in depth, I can say this:

[[[ AMX-13 in 1967? ]]]

1967: Israel had a large number of AMX-13s, which did well in Jordan, but proved very ineffective against more modern Soviet tanks in the Sinai. The whole light tank concept collapsed after their poor performance againt T-55s and T-62s. Contrary to what another poster wrote, from my understanding, they did quite well against T-34s.

In one of the most notable combats of the war, Israeli AMX-13s ran into an Egyptian T-55 formation and the AMX-13s were helpless as their gun could not penetrate T-55 armor except at very close range. The AMX-13s took very heavy casualties and their use was severely restricted after that encounter.

Egypt also used Sherman chassis with AMX-13 turrets in small numbers.

[[[ JS-3 / T-10? ]]]

1967: These were feared tanks in Egyptian hands, but superior Israeli tactics and mobility gutted them the few times they came into open combat in the Sinai. As mentioned, the Egyptians had JS-3s and not T-10s.

One of the textbook operations of the war had Israeli M-48s absolutely ouflank dug-in JS-3s laying in ambush.

Despite the JS-3s heavy armor, modern 105mm cannons gutted them easily. A very large number were brewed with their turrets popped off due to internal ammunition explosions caused by glancing hits.

[[[ BTR-152? And would they be the closed top or open top version? ]]]

1967: Both, although the open-topped versions were more common. As others have mentioned, most Arab troops were mechanized with trucks rather than AFVs.

The Israelis captured a number of these during T6DW, which were refurbished by 1973.

The vehicle itself was a mobile coffin and tended to be plagued with mechanical errors.

[[[ BTR-50? ]]]

1967: Widely used by the Arabs. Open topped models were more common. This partly due to the fact that Soviet suppliers would provide the cheapest possible arms deliveries in many cases. The infamous "Monkey Model" (stripped down basic vehicles) is well recorded. Often armor was decidedly substandard due to manufactuing inadequacies.

[[[ SU-100/122/152? ]]]

1967: As others have mentioned, these vehicles were used primarily to bolster T-34 formations or as tank hunters. In combat they were either bypassed and captured or outright destroyed by more mobile Israeli armor formations. Most of them that I've read about were abandoned by Arab troops. Many were captured and a few were even painted in garish bright colors and sit on an Israeli playground in the North. Kids still use them like monkey bars. I remember the photos although I've never seen them in the flesh.

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I can also recommend these resources:

http://the-aiw-reader.blogspot.com/

If you'd like to join The AIW Reader team, we'd be happy to have you. We need book reviews, game reviews, more applicable links and the like.

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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIW-Wargaming/

Great and very helpful discussion group.

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http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/

I tend to write about AIW on my blog at times as well.

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Hope that helps.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Maksim-Smelchak wrote:[[[ AMX-13 in 1967? ]]]

Contrary to what another poster wrote, from my understanding, they did quite well against T-34s.

Let me clarify, what i implied is that the T34/85 had heavier armour so that in a straight up engagement, the AMX-13 would be at a bit of a disadvantage in an attempt to 'slug-it-out'. The AMX-13s did suffer heavy loses during the '67 war when they took on heavier or more numerous opponents, which is why they were shifted to 'second-line' duties and recon.

That said, the Israeli tank crew were better trained and employed better tactics than any of their enemies.

That's the reason why the Egyptians lost so may IS-3Ms, even tough it had better armour and a bigger gun. It also had two piece ammunition which along with (the whole tank) being a Soviet design, meant it had a slow rate of fire too.

Pictures are ALWAYS welcome!!!!

Hugewally wrote:

Maksim-Smelchak wrote:[[[ AMX-13 in 1967? ]]]Contrary to what another poster wrote, from my understanding, they did quite well against T-34s.

Let me clarify, what i implied is that the T34/85 had heavier armour so that in a straight up engagement, the AMX-13 would be at a bit of a disadvantage in an attempt to 'slug-it-out'. The AMX-13s did suffer heavy loses during the '67 war when they took on heavier or more numerous opponents, which is why they were shifted to 'second-line' duties and recon.

That said, the Israeli tank crew were better trained and employed better tactics than any of their enemies.

That's the reason why the Egyptians lost so may IS-3Ms, even tough it had better armour and a bigger gun. It also had two piece ammunition which along with (the whole tank) being a Soviet design, meant it had a slow rate of fire too.

Hi Martin,

No worries, mate. And well said!

And you're right, technically the AMX-13 should be at a disadvantage when facing T-34s, BUT it didn't happen that way as you've mentioned.

Of course, technically, based on the odds, Israel should have lost in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968-70, and 1973, but they didn't.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Maksim-Smelchak wrote: Of course, technically, based on the odds, Israel should have lost in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968-70, and 1973, but they didn't.

lol So true...

Thanks to all for the information. Although everyone seems to have missed my last question regarding what kind of recon vehicles are common for both sides.

Guess what? I got a post card from GHQ today!

In no particular order:
Jeep types widely used, Walids (I'm using roofed BTR-152s for the time being), PT-76s, BTR-40s, BRDM 2s in '73, AML-90s, leather Size 10s too.

Hope that is of some help.

Well, the AMX-13s are tanks

Well... I guess that depends on your definition of a tank. Them in the media told us that the British deployed tanks to Heathrow during some terror scare and proceeded to show us pictures of Sabres or Scimitars. IMHO, an AMX-13 doesn't quite count either.

Mike