GHQ Models Forums

Well my previous thread about help with Russian and Polish equipment certainly answered many of my questions, and i am getting ready to order up some minis to get painted and based and ready to fight! I would like to replicate the USSR in the late 70s-early 80s. I have a few questions before i place my order though, i want to try and make my unit as realistic as i can.

As i dont have the resources to support an entire regiment atm (read, the money) i am going to limit my operations to batallion level atm (seens reasonable enough, also the smallest unit at which "combined arms" seems to have been practiced)

I want to assemble a tank batallion, with Motor Rifle and artillery support
It seems that, luckily, a tank battalion has 31 tanks...and they come in packs of 5...i get to screw 4 up in the painting phase! Also seems my guys will need a lot of APCs...BMPs for them!

Thus far, i have as follows...
31 x T-64s (i think my time period is pre T-80, just an excuse to build another force later!)
My tanks need fuel trucks and supply vehicles...ZiL 157s? Looks like 4 or 5 required?
Officers and all these infantry need BMPs...
3 MR platoons, each with 3 squads in an APC = 9
1 MG platoon in 2 APC's (4 mg teams)
1 MR company command squad in an APC
1 MR company's NCO "utility vehicle"
Tank Battalion NCO has an APC for his use
Plus 1 or 2 APCs for the artillery battery's CO and XO
Total 15 (or 16?), assuming that the NCO's "utility vehicles" are indeed APCs...would another vehicle type be more correct for them?
Artillery battery will need 6 2S1 122mm SP guns (yay, again 4 to screw up!)

Infantry! Seems that a squad in the Soviet army was 8 men? so 24 to a platoon, or 72 in a company? Would the "mechanized company" stands be better, or would individual infantry work best for this? Also, will the "individual infantry weapons" have the MG teams required for the MG platoon? Also how many figures are required to represent the command of the MR company, or can they be best represented by the APCs?

Anything i missed? Should my tanks have an ARV or two? Should my artillery have resupply (ammo and fuel etc) trucks with them? Would a force like this usually have some AA? (worried about nasty NATO helicopters!)

Tanks, APCs, and SP artillery i have figured out i thinks, but not quite sure on the rest. Thanks!

once again, edited for spelling....

CA-68 wrote:Well my previous thread about help with Russian and Polish equipment certainly answered many of my questions, and i am getting ready to order up some minis to get painted and based and ready to fight! I would like to replicate the USSR in the late 70s-early 80s. I have a few questions before i place my order though, i want to try and make my unit as realistic as i can.

As i dont have the resources to support an entire regiment atm (read, the money) i am going to limit my operations to batallion level atm (seens reasonable enough, also the smallest unit at which "combined arms" seems to have been practiced)

I want to assemble a tank batallion, with Motor Rifle and artillery support
It seems that, luckily, a tank battalion has 31 tanks...and they come in packs of 5...i get to screw 4 up in the painting phase! Also seems my guys will need a lot of APCs...BMPs for them!

Thus far, i have as follows...
31 x T-64s (i think my time period is pre T-80, just an excuse to build another force later!)
My tanks need fuel trucks and supply vehicles...ZiL 157s? Looks like 4 or 5 required?
Officers and all these infantry need BMPs...
3 MR platoons, each with 3 squads in an APC = 9
1 MG platoon in 2 APC's (4 mg teams)
1 MR company command squad in an APC
1 MR company's NCO "utility vehicle"
Tank Battalion NCO has an APC for his use
Plus 1 or 2 APCs for the artillery battery's CO and XO
Total 15 (or 16?), assuming that the NCO's "utility vehicles" are indeed APCs...would another vehicle type be more correct for them?
Artillery battery will need 6 2S1 122mm SP guns (yay, again 4 to screw up!)

Infantry! Seems that a squad in the Soviet army was 8 men? so 24 to a platoon, or 72 in a company? Would the "mechanized company" stands be better, or would individual infantry work best for this? Also, will the "individual infantry weapons" have the MG teams required for the MG platoon? Also how many figures are required to represent the command of the MR company, or can they be best represented by the APCs?

Anything i missed? Should my tanks have an ARV or two? Should my artillery have resupply (ammo and fuel etc) trucks with them? Would a force like this usually have some AA? (worried about nasty NATO helicopters!)

Tanks, APCs, and SP artillery i have figured out i thinks, but not quite sure on the rest. Thanks!

once again, edited for spelling....

For starters you may have a 13 tank company (or 40 tanks to the battalion) depending on the the tank battalions parent organization i.e. if the battalion is the tank battalion of a mechanised rifle regiment.
3 POL (fuel) trucks for the battalion.
For the MR company, only 10 total BMPs 3 to a platoon X3 , and 1 for the company CO.
6 MGs (none in the hvy weapons pack,you might be able to use the AGS-17 with a little work) per MG platoon in 2 BMPs with of course 3mgs in each. You may also have AGS-17 (auto grenade launchers) squad of 2( these are in the GHQ indvidual hvy weapons pack) of these in one BMP. This would be from the MR Battalion support. 3 of these would equal an AGS-17 platoon, once again this is at battalion level support. Also to note at battalion level is the AAGM platoon. This has 9 SA-7 grails(none to be found in the Soviet pack,but with a knoife convert the stinger from the US pack) in 3 BMPs with 3 SA-7s per BMP.
Also at Battalion would be 120mm mortar battery, 8 of these in GAZ-66 trucks. This may be broken down to 4 sections of 2 each. Of course depending on the time frame it may consist of a 6 tube battery of 3 sections too.
Squads of infantry would be 8 dismounts for BMP1 and 7 dismounts for the BMP2. I would suggest to use the individual infantry. I really don't like the other ones(a square of troops at attention!). You might be able to get by with 1 pack of infantry and 1 of the hvy weapons to represent 1 company. Not sure about your NCO vehicle but I am sure that it is not an BMP.
For the artillery no APCs but you may use 2 ACRVs, one is for the battalion FO? and the other for fire control. Ural-375 X6 for ammo trucks for the battalion.
In the Soviet army at this period most logistics are at army and front level.
All this is out of the US Army FM100-2-3 "The Soviet Army" June 1991

Thanks for the reply, more good info here!

I wish to have a tank battalion with 1 company of attached MR support. I was informed that tank companies are of 10 tanks each when the primary unit is a tank unit (odd that there are actually more tanks per company when they are attached to a MR battalion or regiment...)

So the attached MR company would retain its battalion level components (ie mortar company and AAGM company?) This is looking to be a fun project, i am going to get started on some more in depth research and in the meantime, order up some minis. My last question, are the 120mm mortars represented in the heavy weapons pack?

Thanks!

CA-68 wrote:Thanks for the reply, more good info here!...

...are the 120mm mortars represented in the heavy weapons pack?

Thanks!

Yes

If you are building a tank battalion, with attached infantry company, you would probably run without the infantry battalion support elements (the mortars).

One reason that the Tank Companies were smaller in tank formations (10 tanks) versus in Motor Rifle formations (13 tanks), is that Tank formations were doctrinally intended for maneuver and exploitation AFTER the breakthrough. So the entire organization was built a little leaner, so that it would befaster moving and easier to control. The Motor Rifle units were actually the ones that were intended to do the breakthrough attacks (the heavier combat).

So also for this reason, a tank battalion would not have its own mortars, and would be unlikely to deploy mortars from the regiment's infantry. Call on the 2S1s if you need fire, but keep moving yourself. The tank battalion is intended to fight from the march, quick and sharp.

Agree with the ACRVs for the arty battery CO and XO vehicles. If you do choose to go with some mortars, better to mount them in MTLBs than in GAZ-66s. (Truck-born mortars supported the wheeled APC formations up to about the BTR-60, and were never common in support of BMP formations.) For utility vehicles a UAZ-469 would be best, but a GAZ-66 could serve as well.

You might want to attach some SPAA to your tank formation. A two-track section of ZSU-23-4 or SA-13 for the 1970's or early 80's, or 2S6s for a more advanced 80's capability.

So it starts counting up like:

31 MBTs
10 BMPs, 10 infantry squads
6 2S1s
2 ACRVs
2 SPAAs (your choice)

This gives you a handy core force. Now you can add more things around it if / as you like, such as regimental recon (8 BRDM-2s, 4 BMPs, 1 BRDM-2u), more AA or artillery (how about BM-21 MRLs or 2S3 152s?), and eventually the rest of the infantry battalion.

I have as my core set of a battalions: a battalion of infantry, which can be mounted in one of my battalions of BTR-60 APCs, BTR-80 APCs, or BMP-2 IFVs. I also have a battalion of T-72s, and a battalion of T-80s. Then I add a company of T-62s, T-55s, BMP-1s, BMP-3s, T-80Us. This gives me a very flexible mixing capability, so I can do a battalion with a company attached of a very wide variety of equipment.

Then I "accessorize" with ZSU-23/4s, ZSU-57s, 2S6s, SA-8s, SA-9s, SA-13s, 2S1s, 2S3s, 2S19s, BM-21s, BM-27s, BM-28s, BRDM-3s, FROGs, SS-21s, PMP bridging, PTS-M amphibians, etc. etc. etc. You get the picture. If you build a core force (start with one battaion + 1 company), you can just keep adding little attachements as they catch your fancy.

There's so much to buy! Its really rather addictive. But fun.

What rules are you using? At 1:1 it would be rare to see arty on the same table with all of the other stuff, especially in a European scenario. You might be able to save some money there.

Tim

Good news for you. There are new specials which might help you out BMP-2 and BTR-70 among others.

Paul

Mk 1 wrote:If you are building a tank battalion, with attached infantry company, you would probably run without the infantry battalion support elements (the mortars).



If you do choose to go with some mortars, better to mount them in MTLBs than in GAZ-66s. (Truck-born mortars supported the wheeled APC formations up to about the BTR-60, and were never common in support of BMP formations.) ..

?? negative,the 120 mortar /80mm auto mortar battery, was in all MR Bns regardless of BMP or BTRs. Another thing too no MTLBs for hauling them (at least I haven't found them in any pertinent TO&E that relates to this subject)they were always hauled by truck (GAZ-66)
I know that the mortar battery was composed of 2 tube sections X 3 or 4,but I don't know if the battery was broken up(by sections) to support individual companies that were detached for the advance guard.

The FM on OPFORs that I have shows only one FO team with the mortar battery (which has two sections, each of 3 tubes as JB notes.) That implies an expectation that all of the tubes would stay together, but I can't imagine that company COs would be prohibited from calling for fire support from these assets as well.

The part about wanting the unit to keep moving and therefore using mobile arty like the 2S1s or truck mounted mortars makes a good deal of sense. But im starting to get the image that there may not be a "wrong" mix of supporting equipment to blend with a force like this, as it looks like the Soviets did not adhere to one overall "structure" as rigidly as i thought. This is looking to be a fun project!

Yes, i probably dont NEED to represent my battery of 2S1s, they will hopefully be far enough away from harm that they wont need to be on the table. But i might have to represent them in certain scenarios, and besides, i just want them!

I imagine that the real Soviet commanders faced very similar decisions. What equipment and vehicles should a battalion like this take with them? How much artillery support, how many men? BMPs or BTRs? Shoulder fired AA missiles, or heavier SPAA? How many trucks? I have been doing a lot of research online, but continue to learn more from the members on this forum than from the sites i have found. Thanks a lot, please keep the advice comin!

PS them sale priced BMPs and BTR-70s are on my order list, thanks for pointing those out. Might be a little too new for my period, but im sure i'll find a use

BTR-70s are great for use through the 1970s.

The Soviets kept their BTRs in service for a long time. One reason for their love of wheeled APCs was their longevity vs. tracked designs. Wear and tear is just much lower on a wheeled vehicle. They get used more often, yet stay in service longer.

You can easily pair BTR-70s with T-55Ms or T-62s for a 1970-74 timeframe, and with T-64s for a 1970-80 timeframe.

BTRs & T-62s vs. M-113s and M60A1s makes for a very interesting battle. I used to fight those out in the early 1980s (when I was gaming, not the timeframe I was covering).

The fun thing about BTRs is that they really force you to play an infantry and tank game, not just a tank game. With BMPs, there is a tendancy to treat them as little tanks, and the infantry never gets out.

That said, the Tank formations (rather than Motor Rifles) were the more dangerous, and often make for the more interesting battles. Lots of folks just prefer gaming the mobile engagements, rather than deliberate attacks. BMP-2s, with later-generation T-72s or T-64s make a powerful fighting force for the 1980s.

I personally like to have my artillery models, even if they are often off-board. Particularly if you are playing the exploitation phase after a penetration -- a mobile engagment with the leading elements of a Soviet OMG (Operational Manuever Group), the arty may well be travelling within the combat element's column. You would have your close recon (Regiment's recon elements) out about 10Km in front of your advance guard (a company + re-inforcing platoon), and out 3-5Km on either side of the advanced guard, which itself would be about 5Km in front of your battalion battle group. The battalion would be in a combat column that was about 3 or 4km long. The arty would travel near the battalion HQ group, which would place itself about 1/3rd of the way back in the column.

Recon elements would work together to try to identify enemy positions, and infiltrate between them with minimal combat. The advanced guard would try to sweep away any light screening force by overwhelming firepower. If the advanced guard winds up engaging a force of any substance, the arty would immediately swing off to the side of the road and begin to set-up. The HQ group would quickly decide if the attack was to run straightit in (only if resistance was judged to be weak), or swing off to one side or the other to sweep the enemy from a flank while the advanced guard holds their attention to the front.

The arty would need to be able to fire within 10 minutes, because the whole attack should be able to go in that soon after first contact by the advanced guard. A quick barrage, the tanks and APCs role in, and the whole thing is over within minutes.

Straight from a road-march column to a well-developed attack within minutes. Short, sharp, and violent. If it was in fact only a screen, within 20 minutes the whole force would be back on the road again. If it was a real battle, the next battalion behind would pass through and take the lead while the first battalion finished mopping up and re-organizing itself. If the battle was not won, the follow-up battalion would shift directions and lead the OMG off along a different route.

It was all about momentum. Relentless attacking. Constant movement. No time to sit and think. Never allowing the opponent enough time to pin you down, to know where you were going next, to organize an effective defense.

I play at 1-to-1 unit scales, but I like a battle board that is typically 6-8km in length and 3-5km wide, so that there is indeed some room for manuever. If you abstract the recon and start with the advanced guard 2 or 3km into the board, or play the recon first, and assume that the column has had its advanced guard stripped away in an air attack or by running up on a minefield, you can wind up with your whole battalion column, arty included, entering the board. I just love seeing those 2S1s lined up along the side of the road. (So do most of my opponents, if they can get their sights on 'em! ).

I play at 1-to-1 unit scales, but I like a battle board that is typically 6-8km in length and 3-5km wide, so that there is indeed some room for manuever.

Mark,

My standard board is also almost precisely that scale size (7200m x 4800m) but I game at 1 stand = 2-4 squads, 2-4 vehicles, or 2-4 special/heavy weapons instead of 1:1. My standard table size is 4' x 6' and it's divided into 400m x 400m squares which are 4" x 4". So, effectively 1" = 100m. What size table do you play on?

Tim

Tim:

These days the most common game board for me is the ping pong table in my garage.


I'm on the right, here, playing a Barbarossa scenario on Thunder's 2x4ft game board tiles spread on my ping pong table.


This is the set-up for another Barbarossa game, but in this case using my own terrain.

At 1:2000 ground scale, a ping pong table provides a 3 x 5km area.

In years past, when I had stronger knees (and less weight for them to lift), and less of life's accumulated clutter, I would often use the entire garage floor, and we'd all get down and crawl around. Now, the ping pong table serves me just fine.

jb wrote:

Mk 1 wrote:If you are building a tank battalion, with attached infantry company, you would probably run without the infantry battalion support elements (the mortars).



If you do choose to go with some mortars, better to mount them in MTLBs than in GAZ-66s. (Truck-born mortars supported the wheeled APC formations up to about the BTR-60, and were never common in support of BMP formations.) ..

?? negative,the 120 mortar /80mm auto mortar battery, was in all MR Bns regardless of BMP or BTRs. Another thing too no MTLBs for hauling them (at least I haven't found them in any pertinent TO&E that relates to this subject)they were always hauled by truck (GAZ-66)
I know that the mortar battery was composed of 2 tube sections X 3 or 4,but I don't know if the battery was broken up(by sections) to support individual companies that were detached for the advance guard.

upon further study into the FM,I came across some info regarding the MTLB hauling the 120mm mortar. It states that there are some reports of 120 mortars "put upon" the MTLB. Don't know for sure if they fired it while it is on the back deck or just threw it on there to transport it,kind of sketchy.
Also the battery was compossed of 2 platoons. I guess the platoon size depended on if it is a 6 or 8 tube battery. There are also 5 low powered radios to the battery, and an FO section of 4 individuals. Don't know if FOs went seperate ways or not?? just don't know...

I would often use the entire garage floor, and we'd all get down and crawl around. Now, the ping pong table serves me just fine.

I've seen what a misplaced thumb can do to a microarmor gun barrel or .50 cal.

But a misplaced knee or foot?!?!?! Yikes!

Back in the "old" days it seemed that the standard size table for 20th century gaming was a 5' x 8' pingpong table (or any gaming really). I'm thinking of Command Decision and Wargamer's Digest. When I was a boy I remember playing with plastic soldiers on our pinopong table in the basement (that was in the 70s).

Then 40K and related games took over and now the standard seems to have shrunk to 4' x 6'. Ready made game matts and tables in gaming stores all seem to be this size. Not a huge problem when 1 stand ~ 1 platoon, especially with microarmor. But it can be tight in larger scales such as 15mm and 1:1 vehicle ratios. I watched a Flames of War tourney the other day and it looked like ancient warfare instead of WWII given the high troop density!