GHQ Models Forums

Folks,
I've been posting on the miniatures page requesting ideas on how to go about getting people interested in micro armor gaming in my area. I was quite surprised at what amounted to hostility from posters who replied to my subject. there were guys who basically said "micro armor is dead" and other helpful replies.
When I visit a city for the first time on business, I try to find the gamestores in town. I'll call and ask if they carry any micro armor or have any games happening. I have encountered NONE. It is, without exception, Flames of War 15mm. It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't hate the scale, thought the rules were lousy (Panzertruppen move....right), were too expensive, and made you buy 37 supplements before you could play. I understand and sympathize with gamestores...these folks have to make a living so they stock what sells, but nasty attitudes from other gamers? Am I imagining this or have other people encountered these attitudes?

Jeffrysl,
That's exactly what I was told--generally by people playing 15mm or 20mm. Of course their games looked ridiculous, with wall to wall toys and 2 buildings standing in for a town. I really love it when they say they don't like microarmor because the boards look like parking lots. Huhhh, Kettle ...black. I have yet to see any games put on by these peculiarly biased folks that bear any semblance to a actual piece of terrain with realistic troop density. I don't know if any of the games I've put on have affected attitudes, but at this point, I really don't care if such silly people game with me or not.
Mark

I played a 1/72nd scale not so long ago. This one fella had tons of the plastic tanks,vehicles,and other acroutements. I tried to invite him to a micro scale game,but he just made a snide remark that he would just as soon use counters before using micro scale.
I just find that statement sticking with me. Reading this thread just brings it up....
Poor guy doesn't know what he is missingI

HEY GUYS

Carl here from the Cleveland Ohio camp. We have many gamers here who play 1/72 with easy eights battleground rules. However, I have been able to revive some of the micro armour clan over here because I am a GHQ fanatic, Anyhow, I was able to put on a few games featuring micro armor with combined arms actions featuring some scenarios focused around the Stalingrad battles. Also did some Italian and British in the desert as well-those british crusaders and matilda's tank were like tigers up against Italian armor-no wonder why thay got spanked in 40 and 41. We used GHQ rules as well as some home brew rules for our own testing and flavor.

If your ever in the Cleveland area. Look up the Warzone -Matrix right by the Cleveland Hopkins airport. We can usually get a game going up in minutes because we have enough terrain maker, tanks and infantry to outman the entire armed forces of the world.

Yes I heard the same arguments as all of you have --but if you play it and build the terrain -- thay will come over to the dark side.

Carl

I think that part of what is being expressed as comments about the scale and the models is actually a "war" between the rules being used. FOW is a dumbed down game that uses military models.

Most Micro Armor players tend to try and get some level of realism. And even within our community we don't agree on how to do that. One of the things that does hurt micro armor is not havig a comprehensive set of rules that 90% of everyone knows how to play. I actually kinda like it that way. War gaming is much more fun in small groups where you have gamers who basically want the same thing from a game.

My roomate has gotten into FOW from more serious wargaming. The one thing he has mentioned is the ability to actually finish a game. When I was activly gaming in Tulsa I can only remember 3 or 4 times in 2 years that we actually fought to conclusion before someone had to leave and go home early. And it is intriging to watch people play a game without having to use charts.

I just had easonable success at the local store. The group of gamers there are as we have all observed, GW converts to FOW. Slowly over a period of seveal months, I would bring in painted microarmor to show, and then left a catalog at the store. I then showed up with two opposing sides for a 1500 pt FOW game on a 2x3 foot terrain maker board.

After talking to the guys, and showing them how much more in the way of figures and quality they get from GHQ figures, I slowly got some converts.

Fast forward to this last month, we played our first game of Microarmor WWII, and the guys put enough orders together ( over $1000) to have the store now carry GHQ on a regular basis. They are buying up Combat Commands like it was candy, and looking at doing modern.

It takes time and patience, but everyone eventually succumbs to the the allure of mircoarmor, and the best part is I do not have to do both sides of a conflict to get a gmae together.

Having recently returned to microarmor from 15mm gaming I might be able to shed some light here. Especially since my return to microarmor was encouraged by a friend (Mark Luther) who really, really dislikes larger 15/20mm figures and 5:1 games but also prefers more detailed games (which I don't like as much).

1. Figure Size vs Unit and Ground Scale

For 15mm/20mm gamers this is generally not an issue. We larger scale gamers often play games in which a stand represents an entire platoon and 1" is 40-50 yards. But we do this while refering to the models as individual tanks and figures as individual figures as if we're playing 1:1! Our villages are often treated in the same way so that a two buildings on either side of the road are an entire French "town" but we then fire several hundred scale yards THROUGH the village (down the road) at an enemy tank. From a visual 1:1 toy soldier perspective it makes perfect sense. From a strict scale perspective it's absolutely, 100% silly.

In Flames of War (have played it since it was first available in the US, but not as much lately) it's even worse in that mere companies receive support assets more appropriate for an entire division and arty ranges are scoped so that arty appears on the table with the infanty company! (so they can sell more figures...off-board arty need not be purchased.)

We microarmor gamers like to think of our games as being more accurate with respect to scale issues, even when vehicle models represent a platoon or an infantry stand an entire squad. But if the models represent a platoon or squad we're still dealing with the same distortion as 15/20mm gamers but it's a little less noticable.

On the other hand even 1:1 microarmor gamers are subject to delusions of grandeur. A friend is a die hard 1:1 gamer who scoffs at 5:1 games but then puts on scenarios he decribes as (for example) "representative of the attempted breakout by the Warsaw mechanised Brig and 1st Light Tank Bttn against the 4th Leichte Div on Sept 18, 1939 near the town of Tomaszow Lubelski in southern Poland". So, a couple of 1:1 tank platoons are thought of as an entire brigade or battalion which is simply the reverse of platoon-scale gamers thinking of tank platoon models as individual 1:1 tanks.

The problem is that 1:1 gamers (like my friend, those who play FOW, and myself before I went back to platoon scale) want the tactical flavor/detail of 1:1 gaming but also want the sweep, scope, and combined arms aspects of higher level gaming. And we "5:1" gamers want the sweep, scope, and combined arms aspects of higher level gaming but also want the rich tactical flavor of 1:1 gaming (too much abstraction and the game becomes dry and lifeless.)

We ALL want to be Patton hunting tanks with a bazooka. We just arrive at the same destination from different points of departure.



2. Accuracy Snobbery

I hate to say it but for many of us in the 15/20mm community we see microarmor gamers as accuracy snobs tilting at windmills (remember, I'm writing this as a recent convert back to microarmor.) Microarmor gamers seem to be more interested in getting things "accurate" such as visual scale and technical accuracy with respect to hardware than having fun. Larger scale gamers seem more concerned about "fun games with toy soldiers".

The micro/accuracy group scoffs at the visual inaccuracies of a huge 20mm tank representing a platoon and firing hundreds of scale yards across down a twisting boccage flanked road which would be truly impossible. But it seems that many micro/accuracy gamers will endure painfully detailed rules which result in lots of people standing around filling out paper forms (doing tax returns is more fun) or flipping through page after page of data (as if the data isn't classified and there's enough real-world data to model from).

The result is that the 15/20mm guys are completely bewildered as to why someone would want to stand around filling out forms and consulting massive charts of questionable accuracy in the pursuit of "accuracy" when the player experience is one of, well, sitting around and filling out forms, looking up lots of data, and doing lots of math. And after doing this for several hours and getting only a few turns done everyone says, "Gosh, that was realistic." So are root ** CENSORED **.



3. Fun Snobbery

At the other end of the scale those of us with an interest in accuracy (that's me when it comes to tactical decision making) are often bewildered by the "fun snobs" and system fan boys. I finally gave up on Flames of War when it became more of cult and less of a game. Here's how bad it is: FOW guys have posted on forums that "overwatch" is not a real-world tactic! That's right, according to them the core tactic of modern warfare was made up by grognard wargamers who dislike FOW.

FOW fan boys often say that since wargaming does not involve acutal shooting, killing, and suffering all wargames are equally unrealistic and, therefore, FOW is just as accurate as any other wargame (the others are simply unplayable). One even said on TMP that since the Germans lost the war all miniature wargames should result in German losses to be accurate, and since that doesn't happen all wargames are equally inaccurate. There's simply no reasoning with such whackiness.

The fan snobs are also VERY hostile if one points out that FOW is a marketing tool to sell products and not a game representative of modern tactics. After spending many hours supporting local FOW tournies and getting local shops to carry FOW products I finally got fed up with the fan boy attacks. Here's the usual sequence:

FOW fan boy: FOW is so historically accurate and fun at the same time! Don't you agree?

FOW gamer/tourney organzier/store recruiter: Well, it can be fun and the core system is very simple and clean, but it's game tactics are really the opposite of historical tactics to encourage aggressive tourney play. And the codex creep is slowing the system down with all of the special rules.

FOW fan boy: You FOW hater, hater, hater!



A couple of guys who played on my terrain at a FOW tourney even called me a FOW hater for pointing out that the Festung Europa book didn't live up to the BF marketing hype...and that was AFTER they played in the tourney I supported with 5 tables of terrain.

4. The Business

As to microarmor availability, it's not just microarmor. Even FOW has its problems. Here in Atlanta three different shops which carried FOW went out of business. They didn't go out of business because of FOW but FOW didn't help them survive either (I bought lots of their stock at very deep discount, often at wholesale cost).

Historical gaming is a very small niche market, WWII gaming is a big segment of that niche, and 15mm/20mm gaming is the more popular segment of the WWII segment compared to microarmor. At some point the market segment becomes so small that a B&M store cannot generate enough churn to justify dedicating valuable shelf space to a product whether it's FOW or microarmor. A retail shop pays for every square foot of retail space in rent, utilities, and staff. The products that generate the best return per square foot win and I don't know of any pure B&M store which thrives on historical gaming (but I can think of many that have gone out of business...) Even pure B&M train shops are having a hard time competing with the internet and larger multi-hobby stores such as Hobbytown (one fellow who owned and closed a local train shop told of people who came to his shop to examine products and then bought online from interent discounters with lower overhead).

5. MOST IMPORTANT THING

So, I suppose each community is a little "hostile" to the others because each has it's own perception of how games should work. Some are 100% dedicated to a particular rule system and can't abide any critique. All want high level combined arms with tactical detail and flavor. Each focuses on particular aspects of gaming and is usually unwilling or unable to recognize flaws in its reasoning (eg 5:1 gamers usually don't realize they're playing a 1:1 game and 1:1 gamers usually overload their games with too many figures or they describe their games as larger scale engagements.)

But the most biggest problem with microarmor is, as my wife says, "They're too darn small to see!"

Tim

PS Last night I played in a friend's 20mm WWII game and I decided that Mark "My Accuracy Snob Friend " is right. The bigger scales look silly to me after playing a lot of microarmor recently, so I've made the final decision to switch my 15mm WWII collection to the "too small" microarmor figures. But I still don't like painfully detailed rules and will stick with my fun hand-full-of-dice approach.



PPS Things are changing too. I've read about AK-47 gamers using microarmor. AK-47 is a beer-and-pretzel game about bush wars in Africa. Very colorful stuff and very interesting that a community of gamers would switch from 15mm figures, which should have more "character" than microarmor, are willing to go 6mm. One very important reason: you can get anything you want in 6mm for moderns!!!! So GHQ, get working on my request for more Third World militia figures from the middle east and Africa!!!

Interesting topic indeed.
While I mainly play FOW, I also have the GHQ- WWII rules as well as their Modern rules, but also FFT2, SH and MSH (don't play much of both- they are ok) and Panzer War. I also have a collection of micro armour, both in WW2 and modern.

Some of the FOW players that I know in Calgary have been toying with the idea of using micro armour for FOW and I had mentioned about playing with other rule sets, such as the GHQ rules. I got about an 80-90% replies saying that they would be interested. Mind you, most of these gamers that I know also play Napoleonic era battles or some other historical/sci-fi games. I even showed them a few of the miniatures for WW2 and they liked what they saw, mind you they also said "Man those are tiny"...yep they are, but they are also cool too

But, I also have ran into GW gamers whom figure that GW stuff is the bomb and nothing else matters (isn't that a Metallica title...Nothing Else Matters)...that would be one reason why I stopped playing GW stuff...that and its to $$$$ now, plus a few other reasons as well.

I have always been a fan of micro armour and will always be a fan of it as well.

Huh?

What is this FOW of which you speak?

15mm is a scale? No, no, no. It is the limit of "short range" for my Russian infantry under the Jagdpanzer rules.

As to accuracy ... well, yes. I do remember exchanging some words with Mobius about the width of the mantlet and thickness of its armor on a Soviet T-40 amphibious light tank (versus the T-40A, which as we all know lost its amphibious capabilities when it was up-armored). But he was good enough to explain his formula for computing the line-of-sight thickness given the rounding of the mantlet, and I was satisfied with the update he provided in the charts in the Panzer War rules. So I don't see why accuracy should be an issue anymore.

I have heard of people playing Napoleonics. I should check it out some time. What kinds of tanks did Napoleon use?

Mk 1 wrote: I have heard of people playing Napoleonics. I should check it out some time. What kinds of tanks did Napoleon use?

They had wooden wheels and were 2 horsepower, manually loaded with an exposed crew.

I think there is a difference in those that use micro armor as well. I have seen micro armor minis used in many applications, including FoW. I think it is more about historical accuracy being the main point of most micro armor games that tends to deter some folks. I am of the mind that if we are playing a game and you say that Marder is really a BMD for this battle, then I dont mind. I have heard of other folks that are not so forgiving in their gaming.

I have also heard about the pro FoW and super pro GW folks that will defend their games to their death, but also bombard you with insults if you criticize it.

People like their fun, but I believe that sometimes folks take it too far on both sides of the fence.

What is this FOW of which you speak?

The one in which British guns use advanced space warping technology so they become more accurate at greater ranges, Germans use super heavy anti-grav tanks to conduct super agile pop-up attacks, Generals Harmon and Rommel engage in personal combat (shades of captain Kirk!), and US jeeps act as teleporter platforms for tank destroyers beaming down from the Starship Enterprise (although everyone has access to even more powerful teleporter technology when in prepared positions.)



That one.



Then again, the system has become so vast and complex that it lost a lot of us. Like Squad Leader it started out simple but now suffers from ASL-style growth hormones. But for a few hundred dollars that will be fixed with version 3's Main Rule Book and many codices and supplements.

Micro continues to survive but it doesn't have the 'curb appeal' that larger miniatures display.

The biggest problem I have seen with microarmor games is the "sci-fi on the rhine" games. Where you have tank on tank battles with no infantry or support troops and nothing but gunnery charts as tactical options. These battles have little resemblance to real battles, and usually little tactical ebb and flow.

People have searched for more tactical flow and decisions, which means infantry and support troops interacting. When I got into microarmor, all GHQ had was the silly blocks of troops, so I played sci-fi too. Now with better infantry that has changed, but people hate painting the micro infantry.

There's a group in Phoenix that is pretty open to Micro armor and Pete sets up a game in a shop there from time to time. Occasionally, I even see a box or two of GHQ product on the shelf there. As people walk by, they all know about FOW and ask how it compares. Not many join in to play, but once in a while they do.

Back in TUcson where I live, there is a shop that is heavily into FOW. They have never played micro armor, but have expressed interest. Now I just have to find the time to run a game.

So, it looks like FOW is by far the dominant force here, I have managed to find a few people who are interested.

They have tried to get me into FOW also. I've watched a few games and they all look like they are having a good time, but the rule system is just not for me. Sorry FOW crowd.

Regardless of the system or scale, although it usually happens with larger scales, shoulder to shoulder tanks drive me nuts.

Well, let me chime in here if I may...

My old club always wanted to do WW2 and, as they provided many games and miniatures for the other periods, I decided to paint up 15mm Russians and Germans. We played one game of FoW and decided we liked the rules. Since then I've run several more games and everyone enjoys themselves (or at least they say so). But I usually cut out a lot of the stupid "special" rules. And I am deliberate about shaping the game.

That said, given the practical limits of tables and arm lengths, it's hard to get any real sense of maneuver in 15mm. I think it looks and feels fine in terrain-heavy games like Normandy or Stalingrad. FoW is specifically designed for games with LOTS of terrain.

My approach for FoW with micro-armor was to make half-size rulers and templates. This will allow FoW player to play the rules as written. Even though dividing by 2 is not that hard, just changing the ruler makes life very simple. I will field armies designed for a 4x6 table on what is, effectively, an 8x12 foot table. Voila! Flanks! Room to maneuver. Throw in some nice terrain and a few house rules (alternating platoon activation, hidden movement, overwatch) and you have a very FUN game.

As for the perception of some games as being more like accounting - lots of charts and math - well, if you like it go for it. But the same hold true in Napolenics. Just mention Empire and you can feel people's eyes glaze over. Still, some people loved ti and still do.

If you want to win people over to Microarmor give them something they don't get in other games. Put small armies on big tables. I'm planning to do the same thing with Warhammer 40k. I'm going to use 15mm figures, big tables and small armies.

As for the retail end of things, I'm just upgrading my mail order business to include a very small brick and mortar store. It will focus primarily on historical miniatures, with some other genres thrown in. And while I'll have a small smattering of AT-43, Starship Troopers and the like, historical miniatures will definitely be the focus.

I've thought, too, about stocking GHQ. But I've had to ask myself: would I sell enough to make the inventory investment worthwhile? I really like the figs and am just basing up all my Soviet infantry for my FoW half-scale project. But GHQ gives such good mail order service I wonder if I'd sell enough myself to bother. So for now I'm holding off and concentrating on products that are harder to get here.

Anyway, just my rambling $0.03 worth.