Hi folks:
Has anyone got these yet?
I'm still wondering what they supplied in the pack as tractors, and if the gun is (I expect) the same model Schneider 47 as in the French pack. Contents, please?
Thanks,
JimR.
Romanian ATG pack
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Mk 1
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Re: Romanian ATG pack
I haven't bought any ... yet. Certainly planned to.kiasutha wrote:Hi folks:
Has anyone got these yet?
I'm still wondering what they supplied in the pack as tractors, and if the gun is (I expect) the same model Schneider 47 as in the French pack. Contents, please?
AAAAHHH! Say it isn't so!DAK wrote:It's the same as the French gun with a German halftrack prime mover
I had presumed that the tractors would be the French UE (produced under license by Malaxa in Romania).
As to "same model Schneider 47 as in the French pack" ... the French didn't use a Scheider 47mm AT gun! They used a 47mm AT gun made by APX. That is the gun sold in kit FR 18. It was known as the SA Mle 37 (sometimes confusing, as a 47mm gun was called the "37"), as it was adopted in 1937. The Scheider 47mm AT gun pre-dated the APX gun by a couple of years (the French called it the SA Mle 36). It was a lighter carriage, with a shorter barrel, but as best I've been able to tell it fired the same ammunition as the APX gun.
I know Kiasutha was involved in our earlier discussion, but other readers may wish to check this old thread, which explored the topic at great depth:
http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopi ... 58&start=0
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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kiasutha
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Dak:
Thanks very much for the info. Been holding my next order 'till I found out.
Much disappointment and "Why???" factor here too.
I still haven't gotten over those captured russian Mg's they gave us.
I really hoped and expected the Malaxa/ UE to be with this one.
Maybe it's a conspiracy to boost sales of the French 25mm pop-gun packs...
Any crew included?
So which German H-T did they supply? Anything I'm likely to be short of?
I may just buy French packs and get the Lafley trucks instead.
Those are always useful...
MK-1:
Yah, darnit, you caught me in one of those freudian "slips of the tongue"!
Was thinking about the older guns, and 2 or 3 other guns I need at the same time.
I'm getting too old for this ****...
Regards,
JimR.
Thanks very much for the info. Been holding my next order 'till I found out.
Much disappointment and "Why???" factor here too.
I still haven't gotten over those captured russian Mg's they gave us.
I really hoped and expected the Malaxa/ UE to be with this one.
Maybe it's a conspiracy to boost sales of the French 25mm pop-gun packs...
Any crew included?
So which German H-T did they supply? Anything I'm likely to be short of?
I may just buy French packs and get the Lafley trucks instead.
Those are always useful...
MK-1:
Yah, darnit, you caught me in one of those freudian "slips of the tongue"!
Was thinking about the older guns, and 2 or 3 other guns I need at the same time.
I'm getting too old for this ****...
Regards,
JimR.
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Mk 1
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DAK:DAK wrote:It's the same as the French gun with a German halftrack prime mover
Have you received your models? Can you post a pic of them for us?
I am just amazed to hear that it is a gun the Romanians never used, without a common Romanian prime mover. Tsk tsk tsk.
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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kiasutha
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And they keep leading me into sin by refering to it in the listing as a Schneider... 
Still; it's what we have for now. I'll use them.
Not being overly into the French 1940 army (exept eliminating it); I confess I hadn't realized how many evolutions the French 47mm atg had gone through.
I guess I thought they used the Romanian one..
Ah well...
Anyone want to discuss Hungarians?
I still haven't found anything "reliable" to indicate they used Skoda 47mm's;
just the Bohler/Breda, and that Belgian gun the Germans passed on in "42"...
JimR.
Still; it's what we have for now. I'll use them.
Not being overly into the French 1940 army (exept eliminating it); I confess I hadn't realized how many evolutions the French 47mm atg had gone through.
I guess I thought they used the Romanian one..
Ah well...Anyone want to discuss Hungarians?
I still haven't found anything "reliable" to indicate they used Skoda 47mm's;
just the Bohler/Breda, and that Belgian gun the Germans passed on in "42"...
JimR.
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Mk 1
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Mk 1 wrote: DAK:
Have you received your models? Can you post a pic of them for us?
I am still stuck in disbelief.kiasutha wrote:And they keep leading me into sin by refering to it in the listing as a Schneider...
I would REALLY appreciate a pic, even un-painted, un-clipped (from sprues). I just can't understand why they would have taken so long to put together the offering if it was models they already had in inventory. (Not to mention why they would offer an APX gun as a Schneider gun.)
DAK: Are you sure it's the same model? No muzzle break? Low rectangular shield? Odd wheels, with no visible tires? Do you have the French guns for comparison? Would a pic (French APX gun from my collection) help?
I don't mean to suggest you are wrong. I'm just stuck in disbelief.
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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kiasutha
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It does seem "passing strange", doesn't it...
They specifically say "Schneider import" in the Romanian listing, and don't identify the tractor.
I've written them twice in the last month to ask about that, and held off ordering to see if it was the right gun & tractor; or if I'd be ahead buying the French pack for the trucks.
(initial confusion aside; I've long realized they were two different guns...).
While GHQ is usually quite good about answering questions, i've received no reply.
And still no photo either. Hence my question here...
DAK, I'd appreciate the photo too, if you can; I'm "digitally challenged" myself, so...
GHQ-Any chance of the UE/Malaxa and/or the Laffley trucks as separate packs?
And how about adding the Skoda 47mm ATG with perhaps the Protze from the 20mm flak pack for the Germans?
JimR.
They specifically say "Schneider import" in the Romanian listing, and don't identify the tractor.
I've written them twice in the last month to ask about that, and held off ordering to see if it was the right gun & tractor; or if I'd be ahead buying the French pack for the trucks.
(initial confusion aside; I've long realized they were two different guns...).
While GHQ is usually quite good about answering questions, i've received no reply.
And still no photo either. Hence my question here...
DAK, I'd appreciate the photo too, if you can; I'm "digitally challenged" myself, so...
GHQ-Any chance of the UE/Malaxa and/or the Laffley trucks as separate packs?
And how about adding the Skoda 47mm ATG with perhaps the Protze from the 20mm flak pack for the Germans?
JimR.
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Mk 1
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I wonder if this rises to the level of concern that the forum voiced on the new US 105mm howitzer last month.kiasutha wrote:GHQ-Any chance of the UE/Malaxa and/or the Laffley trucks as separate packs?
And how about adding the Skoda 47mm ATG with perhaps the Protze from the 20mm flak pack for the Germans?
As I understand it ...
The Schneider 47mm ATG was the primary weapon in the divisional AT companies of the Romanian infantry divisions.
Almost all divisions sent to the Eastern Front (into the Soviet Union) in 1941 were equipped with Schneider guns, and Malaxa (license-built French UEs) as tows.
Those cases were the UE was not used as a tow, the alternatives would most likely have been a German Protze or French Laffley truck.
By 1944, much equippment had been lost in the Stalingrad and Crimean campaigns. The majority of the Romanian army that saw service after June 1944 was re-built units. These units often had Pak 97/38s, Pak 38s, or Pak 40s, and some had the home-built Resita 75mm AT guns. Very few Schneiders (or 47mm guns of any mark) were in service by that time, except for the Bohlers that stayed in service with the Regimental gun companies. It was also at this time that the Romanian army got an influx of German halftracks.
So I can't see any APX guns in service. And even if we do get actual Schneider guns, I can't see a case where a German halftrack would have served to tow one. OK, about anything could happen in the Romanian army as an ad hoc event, but why sell them as a pack?
Arrrrgh, mumble foo...
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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Mk 1
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Sorry if I seem to be flogging a dead horse here, but just to go over a couple of recognition points between guns...Mk 1 wrote: Do you have the French guns for comparison? Would a pic (French APX gun from my collection) help?
This is a Schneider 47mm gun. Note the muzzle break, and the recuperator UNDER the barrel. Note also the gun shield, which has an odd taper from being wide at the top to being noticeably narrow by the axles. This is a sort of hollowed-out semi-circle removed from the shield, as the wheels could be pivoted outwards to form circular extensions to the gun shield when the gun was emplaced.
This is a French APX SA Mle37 47mm AT gun. Sometimes referred to as a Puteaux 47mm gun, made by Artilier de Puteaux (shortened as APX). Note the barrel has no muzzle break, and that the erecuperator is ABOVE the barrel. Note also that the gun shield has straight sides. It also has a wave shape in its upper rim, which was intended to break-up the visual lines and enhance the effects of camoflage when it was implaced. The wheels appear larger relative to the whole gun, in part because they ARE larger, and in part because the gun sits lower in its carriage.
It is a shame if GHQ has taken the APX gun and claimed it is a Schneider. It is not. But are we sure?
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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jb
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Mk 1
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Funny you should say that, JB, as I am spending hours every day working through details of my April Vegas trip: http://www.nabshow.comjb wrote:Maybe we should all go to Vegas to visit with those guys and drink all the beer in town...
Let's see now ... $4,380 to rent seven 40" HD TV LCDs
Furnishings for a 600sq ft meeting room for 4 days ...
108 room-nights at Harrah's at $168 per ...
Round-trip airfares for 12 from San Jose, 5 from Ottowa, and 1 from Paris...
Maybe I can squeeze in little extra for the beer budget, too. Who would know?
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
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cbovill
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Hey Mk1,
Your convention ends the day before our little wargaming convention starts at Bally's, you should try to get an extension. Look what's happening in Vegas in April:
04/18-04/20: ConQuest Vegas
I lifted this great description from the Gaming Report website:
Avalon Conventions is pleased to announce that our newest gaming convention will be held in Las Vegas, Nevada. ConQuest VEGAS will be held April 18 – 20, 2008, the weekend before the GAMA Trade Show.
Working in cooperation and coordination with GAMA, ConQuest VEGAS will offer a variety of wargaming & family gaming, including RPGs, miniatures, collectibles, and board gaming. Special discounts will be offered to GTS attendees, as well as special vendor pricing for GTS exhibitors.
Local gaming hobbyist, Jason Coffey, who has a long history of running gaming events in the Las Vegas area in association with the Las Vegas Wargamers, has agreed to be the Program Manager for ConQuest VEGAS, and be responsible for bringing attendees the very best in gaming.
ConQuest VEGAS, which will be held annually the weekend before the GAMA Trade Show, joins the other ConQuest shows in San Francisco (also know as the Pacificon Game Expo), Seattle and Sacramento. Avalon Conventions also hosts a special cruise event called ConQuest CruiseCon Alaska 2008, leaving next year in July from Seattle.
For more information, contact us via our website at http://www.conquestvegas.com, or call us at 805 218-9590.
04/20 - 04/26: GAMA Trade Show
...and I lifted this from the GAMA News site:
The Game Manufacturers Association (GAMA), the National Retail Hobby Stores Association (NRHSA), and the National School Supply and Equipment Association (NSSEA) are pleased to announce a “Mega Week of Trade Shows†in Las Vegas, from April 20-26, 2008.
All three associations will be having their respective shows autonomously, yet registration and badges for any individual show will be accepted for entry into the other two.
You picked a great time to come to Vegas! Look us up when you get here, I'll be running games all day long Saturday 04/19.
Chris
Your convention ends the day before our little wargaming convention starts at Bally's, you should try to get an extension. Look what's happening in Vegas in April:
04/18-04/20: ConQuest Vegas
I lifted this great description from the Gaming Report website:
Avalon Conventions is pleased to announce that our newest gaming convention will be held in Las Vegas, Nevada. ConQuest VEGAS will be held April 18 – 20, 2008, the weekend before the GAMA Trade Show.
Working in cooperation and coordination with GAMA, ConQuest VEGAS will offer a variety of wargaming & family gaming, including RPGs, miniatures, collectibles, and board gaming. Special discounts will be offered to GTS attendees, as well as special vendor pricing for GTS exhibitors.
Local gaming hobbyist, Jason Coffey, who has a long history of running gaming events in the Las Vegas area in association with the Las Vegas Wargamers, has agreed to be the Program Manager for ConQuest VEGAS, and be responsible for bringing attendees the very best in gaming.
ConQuest VEGAS, which will be held annually the weekend before the GAMA Trade Show, joins the other ConQuest shows in San Francisco (also know as the Pacificon Game Expo), Seattle and Sacramento. Avalon Conventions also hosts a special cruise event called ConQuest CruiseCon Alaska 2008, leaving next year in July from Seattle.
For more information, contact us via our website at http://www.conquestvegas.com, or call us at 805 218-9590.
04/20 - 04/26: GAMA Trade Show
...and I lifted this from the GAMA News site:
The Game Manufacturers Association (GAMA), the National Retail Hobby Stores Association (NRHSA), and the National School Supply and Equipment Association (NSSEA) are pleased to announce a “Mega Week of Trade Shows†in Las Vegas, from April 20-26, 2008.
All three associations will be having their respective shows autonomously, yet registration and badges for any individual show will be accepted for entry into the other two.
You picked a great time to come to Vegas! Look us up when you get here, I'll be running games all day long Saturday 04/19.
Chris
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DAK
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Sorry guys, I've been away a few days. I wish I was able to post pictures, but at this time I can't. The German halftrack used is the SDKFZ 10/1 pack G108. The gun itself sure looks like the one in the Frenck pack. I to was shocked at the 10/1 being used as a prime mover and also shocked at the Russian heavy machine gun being used as also mentioned earlier in this forum. I will be taking a trip to GHQ next week for quick tour and will give some feed back to them about this issue. All in all GHQ does an outstading job and does listen to its customers.
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kiasutha
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Thanks DAK.
I'm still grumbling too over those Hmg's, and still not sure what to do about it.
Meanwhile, my long awaited infantry sits languishing "sans paint"...
My best info says they only got a total of 9 Sdkfz 10 tractors; all used as tows for a group of Pak-38's. Most lost at Stalingrad. I have no mention of further deliveries of that particular vehicle.
There do seem to have been a few Schneider 47's still in service late war. There were small numbers with the "training divisions", and there is even one photo said to show it in use after they deserted to the Russians. I can't think there were many, or that they were likely to waste the small supply of German half tracks on these little guns.
In addition to the Inf. division AT cpy's, our Romanian friends also list the Schneider/Malaxa combo with 1st.Armored (12 guns;div-AT) and Army independent AT units. They also say it was used in inf. regimental heavy cpy's; in addition to the Bohler which they seem to consider a dual purpose AT/ Lig piece. Pretty wide spread use, at least when they had enough to go-round...
I'll probably go for the French pack & get the Laffleys myself. I can make do with the guns for now just to have a different "look"; and if GHQ does the Schneider later, I can always legitimately give these to 1941/2 German Inf.AT formations as "Pak-38 substitutes".
Thanks for the info,
JimR.
I'm still grumbling too over those Hmg's, and still not sure what to do about it.
Meanwhile, my long awaited infantry sits languishing "sans paint"...
My best info says they only got a total of 9 Sdkfz 10 tractors; all used as tows for a group of Pak-38's. Most lost at Stalingrad. I have no mention of further deliveries of that particular vehicle.
There do seem to have been a few Schneider 47's still in service late war. There were small numbers with the "training divisions", and there is even one photo said to show it in use after they deserted to the Russians. I can't think there were many, or that they were likely to waste the small supply of German half tracks on these little guns.
In addition to the Inf. division AT cpy's, our Romanian friends also list the Schneider/Malaxa combo with 1st.Armored (12 guns;div-AT) and Army independent AT units. They also say it was used in inf. regimental heavy cpy's; in addition to the Bohler which they seem to consider a dual purpose AT/ Lig piece. Pretty wide spread use, at least when they had enough to go-round...
I'll probably go for the French pack & get the Laffleys myself. I can make do with the guns for now just to have a different "look"; and if GHQ does the Schneider later, I can always legitimately give these to 1941/2 German Inf.AT formations as "Pak-38 substitutes".
Thanks for the info,
JimR.