GHQ, FoW, and a few observations

Iron Horseman · Post by **Iron Horseman** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:07 pm

I wanted to share some thoughts with the community at large, being new to the 6mm scale.

First off, I'm a FoW player - that's more or less what got me into historical wargaming, and whether you like the rule set or not, I think most people agree that it has done great things for getting more people interested in the historical aspect of war gaming. I personally find it a fun and playable rule set capable of being played in 2-4 hours - but would be interested in finding something with a little more detail to it as there are certain aspects of the game I just don't like (topic for another post).

One of the things that always bothered me was the visual appeal - and the "parking lot" look to the game. This is one of the reasons I've started to paint up some 6mm GHQ stuff, as I think the rules would work great with almost no modifications using GHQ minis - and I'll be able to change the whole visual affect to something much more realistic looking (IMHO). Now, here's where my issue starts to arise - finding opponents who share my same mindset. I recently relocated to Chicago, and my old compatriots weren't very much interested in converting and painting up entire armies in 6mm so I've come to the GHQ forum looking for players - but there is not player locator capability here?

It seems there are some 6mm players out there - and the FoW players I've met in the past really seem to be somewhat die hard 15mm guys (although some of the guys up in Seattle seem to be making a move to 6mm from what I've read online).

I'd like to see some sort of player locator functionality (seems it's been brought up in the past based on my forum search) - as being new to 6mm, I feel my interest could die if I can't find opponents willing to play FoW or other systems in 6mm. Being there is such a large FoW player base, it also seems that GHQ should be finding a way to make a push towards this large player base as a target audience for their product (which I think is easily as nice as the 15mm stuff out there, better in a lot of cases). I know I can't be the only person falling into this predictament - so as opposed to coming into 6mm and building a flourishing community, I wonder how many people have an interest in 6mm, come to the forums or other online gathering places and then drift away as the resources aren't as available to bring the 6mm community together? I'd think GHQ would be highly interested in this, as a larger community directly translates into stronger product revenue?

There are just my humble thoughts and observations over the past few weeks - but I can't see myself as being unique in this situation?

jb · Post by jb » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:09 pm

IH,
Heres a post thats been around ,and hasn't been discussed in a while. If I recall GHQ even started a topic about FOW.
http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=910
http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=962

Panzerleader71 · Post by **Panzerleader71** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:03 am

I was toying with this exact same idea about 4 or 5 months ago. However, there were too many things in FOW that I really did not like. So, I moved on to Blitzkrieg Commander. Easy system to learn and teach, and perfectly suited to 6mm minis. Also, surprising realistic given its simplicity.

Oh, yeah! It is also self contained with full lists for armies from SCW to 1945 NWE. No extra books to buy.

Glad FOW has led you to an internest in historical gaming, I just wish more would graduate from it.

you should be able to do a fine job with FOW in the 6mm scale. Good luck.

Iron Horseman · Post by **Iron Horseman** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:02 am

Yes, I had read through a few FoW related threads on this site - all very interesting reads. I also own the Blitzkrieg Commander rules - I must say it sounds fun, I've just never found anyone playing it (I watched a few guys back in Colorado play it, the liked it but it never really caught on).

Does any particular WWII game cater to 6mm - seems like many people, play many different games - but is there one particular ruleset that is typically played in 6mm? I really like 1:1 rules, and I'm wanting to actually play with the stuff I paint up - so I'd like to find some guys in the Chicago area who play some system in 6mm? So far I haven't seen anything played at the local game store (local being almost an hour away

).

Extra Crispy · Post by **Extra Crispy** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:34 am

Iron Horseman:

Where in Chicago are you?

My first suggestion would be to head to Little Wars - the convention just north of the city. I'll be there as a vendor (Scale Creep Miniatures) so would have lots of rule books you could look at.

But more importantly you could find other local gamers. I'm doing FoW myself in half-scale so my 5x8 table is effectively 10x16. Even with 3000 points a side the armies are SMALL. As for other rules to look at try:

Mein Panzer (www.odgw.com)

Iron Horseman · Post by **Iron Horseman** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:41 am

I live in downtown (South Loop to be exact). I looked at going to Little Wars, but I didn't see any 6mm WWII gaming going on, and that's what I'm really after. Maybe there will be some, it just wasn't on the scheduled events list?

I may see if I can make it (not sure if I'm in town that weekend or not - I've been traveling quite a bit lately).

jb · Post by jb » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:11 pm

Iron Horseman wrote:I live in downtown (South Loop to be exact). I looked at going to Little Wars, but I didn't see any 6mm WWII gaming going on, and that's what I'm really after. Maybe there will be some, it just wasn't on the scheduled events list?

I may see if I can make it (not sure if I'm in town that weekend or not - I've been traveling quite a bit lately).

IH,
We will be at Little Wars with the following;
event E184

Event Title Prokhorovka 12 July 1943
Program book description Command the German armored thrust of the
2nd SS Panzer corps to capture the important communication hub of
Prokhorovka. If that is not your style then maybe you will prefer to
defend the Motherland against the "Hitlerite" divisions by commanding
an Armored or an Infantry unit.
The terrain is actual terrain replication of the area the battle was
fought in.
Please, players should be familiar with Spearhead rules.

Period: WWII
Rules: Spearhead -1 unit equals a platoon
# of Players: Minimum 8 Maximum 12-14 Scale: 1/285th GHQ/CinC
Space Needed 4 each 5'X8' tables or 16'X6' area (actually need 12'X6'
if that can be arranged)

John

Timothy OConnor · Post by **Timothy OConnor** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:40 pm

Hey Horseman!

Like you, I started WWII in 15mm with FoW. I eventually grew tired of the rabid fan-boy attitude that dominates that "hobby" and moved on to other games. One aspect of 20th century 15mm gaming in general and FoW in particular is the troop density problem.

FoW suffers from an extreme form of this problem in that FoW games in 15mm look like an ancients battle rather than a WWII battle. Russian hordes, filling in for Warhammer's Orcs or ancient Gauls, are a particular problem but even Americans and Brits look positively medieval when deployed on the table top.

A friend of mine who is a die-hard 6mm gamer often pointed out to me how absurd 15mm games looked to him and it took me a while to see what he was talking about. When I started doing moderns with GHQ 6mm I finally saw the light!

In 6mm, as long as you restrain yourself, things look much better with a more "open battlefield" look. 6mm gamers can still be guilty of the parking lot syndrome when they try to do Kursk at 1:1 on a 5 x 8 table. But it's much easier to get a proper visual proportion with 6mm compared to 15mm. And the ranges "look" better in 6mm.

I think we're going to see renewed interest in 6mm in the next year or two if only due to the economy. A single Panzer IV platoon of 5 tanks is $45 in 15mm. A company of such tanks of three platoons + 1 HQ tanks is ~$145 (16 tanks). With GHQ you can get the same 16-tank company for just $40! That's just 27% of the 15mm cost! You still roll dice, you still move troops around the table top, you still have a game ending in victory or defeat, but you get to keep $105 of your money by buying 6mm GHQ vs BattleFront's 15mm product. Spend it on an opposing tank company, your wife, or save it. In any case, you don't have to send it to somebody else!

So don't despair! If you're having trouble finding existing 15mm FoW gamers recruit new 6mm FoW gamers. Some groups have done this and it's easier if everyone starts out the same scale. On the other hand, you could easily raise 2 FoW forces in 6mm and still have money left over compared to just 1 FoW force in 15mm. You could then run games providing both sides which can encourage others to play (I recruited lots of FoW players that way.)

Ritter · Post by **Ritter** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:40 am

Ok, this is Jim right?

C'mon I know its you...

Seriously, though although this could be an advertisement for GHQ, this testimony is essentially the reason I stay with GHQ (ok they are better detailed that 15s but I digress...) The cost factor of 15mm is ridiculously huge! Considering what it would take to put two 15mm FOW armies together is and buy all the books and army lists and supplements and...and...and...Whew...I'm broke! As well, an average 1 to 1 scale game on a 3x6 table leaves absolutely no room to maneuver.

I love the fact that I can put a Company of armor at 1 to 1 on a 3x6 table for $40. Just right!

Off to the painting table for another installment in the Infantry Tut!

Troy

Iron Horseman · Post by **Iron Horseman** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:48 am

I really hope you're right - I'd love to see a resurgence of 6mm. Like Troy, it's definately nice to be able to lay a full company of armor on the table, with support for something in the range of $60 - compared to what that would cost in 15's I can buy a hell of a lot of other stuff (more armies if I choose, or gifts for the girlfriend to buy time away to play if needed) - either way, it's money well spent.

I'd like to see more of an acceptance of 6mm by the FoW players - for the most part I've seen many of them view anything not BF with disdain. I hate to say it, as much as I like and enjoy FoW - the players are becoming similiar to the die hard GW followers, looking down on anything not of their chosen scale/rule set?

Paul B · Post by **Paul B** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:30 am

I have both 15mm and 6mm FOW armies. The problem with trying to get the FOW guys to switch to 15mm is tournament play. A large percentage of these gamers are former Warhammer 40K players who live for the tournaments. Since all the FOW tournaments are in 15mm, I do not see a lot of them switching to 6mm.

That being said, the group (around 12 guys) I game FOW regularly with have told me that they will do 6mm for armies that they do not want to spend alot on but wanted to try. They also are interested in modern. It seems that once they have been hooked with 15mm WW2, the transition to microarmor is very easy to modern.

Just an observation from an old microarmor gamer.

Timothy OConnor · Post by **Timothy OConnor** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:39 pm

Paul B wrote: It seems that once they have been hooked with 15mm WW2, the transition to microarmor is very easy to modern.

Just an observation from an old microarmor gamer.

It's especially easy since there's so little available in 15mm moderns. I had looked at QRF, Quality Castings, etc. but all have huge holes in their product lines and even if you use lots of different mfgs. you still can't field a complete force.

With GHQ you can field just about any force you want, even really new stuff like a Stryker battalion.

I game at battalion-level so 1 vehicle model = 2-4 vehicles (about a modern AFV platoon). A Bradley battalion has about 12 vehicle models and a Stryker Battalion has 19 vehicle models. That's about $108 and $171 respectively in 15mm using QRF. Same thing in GHQ 6mm is less only ~ $24 to $40 or so. No brainer there.

FOW1918 · Post by **FOW1918** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:59 pm

Some friends and I have been gaming FOW in 6mm for some time. We did not like the parking lot look of FOW and already had a number of miniatures from years ago. We compared the movement and ranges to GHQ's rules and they were about the same. We do not downsize it in any way. Game on 4x4, 4x 6 and 4x8 tables and use all the same distances as 15mm. It gives a really nice visual game. The one thing we have had a small issue is the base sizes for the infantry. We are moving to 1x1 for most stands with 1/2 x 1 for small teams (command, etc.) This will also allow the miniatures to be used with other systems. The cost is a nice bonus but we found we tend to just buy more.

I am tired of buying all the extra books and may look at the other rule sets in the future.

I hope t post some pics of some of our games soon.

Chris

dougeagle · Post by **dougeagle** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:51 am

With all this talk of FoW in 6mm I thought that I would post my share.
I have been playing FoW since around '03 and have have recently sold my German Afrika Korps for playing Italians in North Africa. At the same time, since I moved away from the main gaming area, I have to get more in order to put on a demo of FoW which will cost me more money and more time to paint (not complaining about the painting portion...luv it

), but you get the idea. Aside from that, I'm still debating as too if I want to continue with my LW Canadians as I still need over $100.00 worth of stuff. However, with all the WW2 6mm that i have, I can put together a playable force in a few minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but the money is the issue.

dougeagle · Post by **dougeagle** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:07 am

Some friends and I have been gaming FOW in 6mm for some time

Quick question here FOW1918...are the turrets of the tanks glued or not. Also, for the infantry stands, are you and your friends still going by the FoW norm of having 2 stands to represent a squad?