GHQ Models Forums

I'm looking at US or Italian gun crews as closest to the early war French to man some of the French AT guns. I have some US summer crews on hand, but those Italians look like they might be a little closer looking. Has anyone else dealt with this? I figure whichever one I use, I can build up the ridge on the Adrian style helmet with a small bit of white glue or something. Thanks for the help.

Tom Oxley

The bulk of my French force was built-up before GHQ started doing their excellent individual figures sets. So my French infantry is overseas brand-X and brand-Y material. For my more recently done French 105s I went to my extras box for some GHQ figures

I have used mostly Russian gun crews. I have mixed-in some Italians as well -- in particular the officers in the Italian infantry pack work well as French officers. (Never quite understood why I'd want an Italian officer wearing a kepi...)









I'm not quite as good at getting close-up photos as some here. Which isn't such a bad thing, as I'm also not quite as good at painting the faces and webgear as those who seem to have the photography down so well. In either case, I hope from the selection above you can judge at least a little how well these figs may or may not work as stand-ins for French crews.

However, that's all for my artillery.

For my AT guns I am still using brand-X kneeling crew figures. With brand-X it hardly matters which nation's figures you choose, as they are not scuplted or casted with the level of detail that might allow you to see the difference. Available, yes. Comparable to GHQ quality? Not a chance!

Hope that helps.

Thanks. Knealing poses. I hadnt even considered that issue. Most of my big guns are off board, so the main thing at the moment is the AT guns. I'll have to look at those guys. I do have a bunch of leftover NVA heavy weapons guys, too, so maybe with a bit of filing on the pith helmets, I could convert some of those. The only problem with the French individual infantry, at least for the rules I use, is that there are so many leftover officer figures, but then they work well for gun commanders. GHQ has done such a great job with things like the Fallschirmjaeger heavy weapons crews, I hope they will catch up with things like the French and other armies. I'm also trying to modify some German 37mm AA guns for the French light AA guns. They are the closest thing I can find in the scale. I just need to shave off the gun shields if they are one-piece castings that I think they will be. Don't need a lot of them, but the scenario book calls for one battery.

Thanks again.

Tom Oxley

Thomaso827 wrote:I do have a bunch of leftover NVA heavy weapons guys, too, so maybe with a bit of filing on the pith helmets, I could convert some of those.

Oy, I'd hate to be the one who convinced you to file down pith helmetted figures! Really. If you don't know what to do with them, send 'em to me and I'll mount 'em in my Italian Sahariannas!

The only problem with the French individual infantry, at least for the rules I use, is that there are so many leftover officer figures

Aye, that's a problem with most all of the GHQ individual infantry packs. That's part of the reason I have so many Italian officers laying about, kepi's or no kepi's.

I'm also trying to modify some German 37mm AA guns for the French light AA guns. They are the closest thing I can find in the scale.

Now you've gotten my curiosity up.

What guns are you trying to kit-bash them into? Are you trying to create some Hotchkiss CA Mle 38 25mm AA guns?

If so, you might also consider working with the Italian 20mm Breda AA guns. A bit closer in size (the 25mm Hotchkiss was only a little larger than a 20mm gun), and shares some of the key recognition features: gunner seated behind the gun, gun low in the swivel mount with the gun-site raised above on a quasi-triangular rail structure, and NO gun shield. The only advantage I see in the German 37mm Flak 36 is that it comes on a tri-pod platform (as did the Hotchkiss), vs. the cruciform platform of the Breda gun. You might clip one leg off and bend a Breda base into a tripod, or consider mixing them, putting Breda tops on Flak36 platforms. Either might be a quicker-and-easier conversion than shaving off a shield and trying to make a 37mm gun look smaller. Just some thoughts.

Or ... are you trying to create some Hotchkiss 13.2mm AA MGs? That might be a more complicated task.

Don't need a lot of them, but the scenario book calls for one battery.

Really?!? And what "scenario book" might that be? Hmmm? Do you perhaps have something you'd like to share with the rest of the class, Mr. Oxley?

I'll check on that Italian gun - sounds a lot better than shaving the German 37. I guess I got lazy and only looked at some of the models, found what looked close and quit looking.

I am a Piquet addict, and they have a scenario book out for the Point of Attack: Blitzkrieg rules, all 12 scenarios dealing with the invasion of France, 1940. Most are historical, a few are fictional, but they look pretty good. The rules have 3 levels of play, and the scenarios go back and forth between the levels, with one at the skirmish or squad level, most at the platoon level (players can run several battalions each) and a few at a grand tactical (players can run a corps or two) scale. I ran the first scenario from the book, the battle for Bodange, Belgium at the regional HMGS convention a few weeks ago, Advance The Colors in Springfield, OH. Excellent stuff. The scenario uses 2 motorcycle infantry companies with a motorcycle HMG company, an armored car platoon, and then reinforcements of an infantry battalion and an 88 battery. All this against a small company of Chasseur Ardennaise. Very interesting and very decieving when you just see the numbers. It plays out very well for the defenders.

Anyway, I'm building my forces initially to be able to run any scenario in this book, and then will add a bit here and there to be able to use the old ASL scenarios in squad level games of PoA:Blitzkrieg. The only thing I didnt find in GHQ products so far (well, add the French gunners to the list now) was command vehicles to use for the French command stands. I found Lafley vehicles with brand Y that are close enough, since I don't have anything but one leader and the vehicle on the base and there isn't any real point of comparrison between them and anything else on the table. Now, the book should be able to be used for other rules sets, but it has all the special information for the Piquet card driven system.

Tom Oxley

Oh, and yes, it seems to be the 25mm AA gun. The listings for the grand tactical level game (which this scenario is) are for "light AA battery", not listing the actual caliber. I checked with two other Yahoo forums concerning France 1940 gaming, and the consensus was that this would be the 25mm weapons. One group provided me with a photo of the French 25 and that was where I made the comparison coming up with the German 37 being close.

Tom Oxley

Thomaso827 wrote:Oh, and yes, it seems to be the 25mm AA gun. The listings for the grand tactical level game (which this scenario is) are for "light AA battery", not listing the actual caliber. I checked with two other Yahoo forums concerning France 1940 gaming, and the consensus was that this would be the 25mm weapons.

The CA Mle 38 ("Camel 38"?) is indeed your most likely candidate, but only barely.

The French army was quite negligent on the subject of light AA until just before the war. Turned down the Hotchkiss proposal for the 25mm gun years before. Hotchkiss developed it for the export market, sold a fair few to Japan, and were in the process of filling a big order for Romania when the French army finally decided they did indeed need such a gun, and took over the guns prior to shipment.

In the end, only a couple of hundred Hotchkiss 25mm guns saw service in the Battle of France.

Another light gun used in almost equal numbers was the Oerlikon 20mm gun. This had a pretty similar mount, with the gunner sitting behind the gun and a triangular rail for the sight -- but the three-legged base was a little closer to a genuine tripod (stood up off of the ground a bit more).

As far as I can tell the 13.2mm Hotchkiss HMG in its AA mount (most often a twin mounting) was not actually used by the army in the Battle of France. The French Air Force used it for airbase defence, and the Marine (Navy) used it for shipboard AA work, but it only really appeared in army use when Free French forces stripped some off of some of the ships interred in Alexandria Harbor and used them in the western desert and Levant campaigns.

Or so I have gathered.

MK1,
You are right, the following is only for some detaill, as all this -French A/A 1940- is a rather obscure and complex subject.
As far as I know at least 20 models of guns from 20&25mm to 105mm caliber, and of MGs were in service (13,2mm and 20mm caliber, also 8mm).
At the armies level 20mm,25mm and 75mm (my lists show only 40 75mm guns at the Armees level ).
So , it's the 25mm and also the 20mm Oerlikon that you 'd expect to find on a gaming table.
MG 13,2mm : it's true the Infantry did not have them, but the cavalry on the AMD Laffly and AMR 35 (not for A/A job !), and right, the Marine,the "Defense aerienne du Territoire" and some GQG (HQs)did have them. It is known that some twin 13,2MG were used in combat, and even some on their transport trucks (132 platoons of 2 MGs were deployed in all the French "Armées")
The main weapon was the 25mm Modele 38, I can't remember having seen one in 6mm but ...In May 40, 234 25mm A/A guns were in service in the "Armees". But 490 25mm in various versions were delivered to units in May-June.
20 37mm Schneider A/A guns and 42 Bofors were also in service.
Remember that many twin 8mm MGs on wheels, trucks or in fixed positions were used too.
Back to the original question of this topic : I'd use Italians with some French infantry converted.
Cheers,
Vdmfighter

MK1-
Ah, another subject of interest as "Little Romania" slowly arms to beat back the bolsheviks!
Do you have any of the GHQ Breda 20mm AA packs?
Mine came on a rather flimsy TRIPOD mount that looks quite similar to the Hotchkiss gun.

For now, I'm using the Breda model "as is" as a stand-in for the French M 38.
If you put the Breda gun on a German 20/37mm platform, it does look pretty close to the later French model 39 with the "beefed-up" mounting.
There is a nice shot of this one on the www.worldwar2.ro website, btw, as well as a 13.2 "single" on a ground mount.

Quite a few M-38's were ordered by Romania, and there seems to be some dispute as to if at least part of the order was actually delivered; pre-war.
In any case, by Barbarossa they seem to have had a good number of French 25mm and 13.2mm AA on hand; not sure yet if the later included "twins" or not though...
Meanwhile, I'm hashing around a few thoughts on building the 13.2's while waiting for by "summer-sale" order to show up...
Regards,
JimR.

kiasutha wrote: Do you have any of the GHQ Breda 20mm AA packs?
Mine came on a rather flimsy TRIPOD mount that looks quite similar to the Hotchkiss gun.

In the immortal words of Homer: "D'oh!"

Right you are, my friend. Right you are. Don't know what I was thinking to say the Breda's were on a cruciform platform. Running off at the mouth too fast, or perhaps half-fast ( ) as the case may be.


Yep indeed I do have Bredas, and they most certainly ARE on three-legged platforms. As can be seen here in the back row behind some of my Italian 47mm AT guns.

I now pronounce them as acceptable alternate-standard for Hotchkiss 25mm guns as needed. Might think about thickening up the barrels around the mountings to give it more of the look of that characteristic Hotchkiss fluting, but otherwise close enough for my wargaming purposes.

For now, I'm using the Breda model "as is" as a stand-in for the French M 38.

Quite a few M-38's were ordered by Romania, and there seems to be some dispute as to if at least part of the order was actually delivered; pre-war.
In any case, by Barbarossa they seem to have had a good number of French 25mm and 13.2mm AA on hand; not sure yet if the later included "twins" or not though...

The Romanians were active in collecting French equipment from multiple sources after May of 1940. In some cases the French resumed production under German supervision, in other cases the Germans passed along war-booty, and in extreme cases they received refugees from other armies who brought their gear with them. Don't know which was the case with the AA guns.

But the added benefit I see here, is that Romanian and French gun crews should be similar enough that I can make one set of guns and use them for either army! Since both guns would have to be manned substituting-in some other nation's crew figures, and both will get similar Khaki colored uniforms. Of course a LOT of my Romanian stuff can do double duty (R35s, Lafflies, 100mm Howitzers, 75mm guns, etc.). But of course, that's assuming I ever get my Romanian forces done, which might not be a good assumption in my particular case...

Mk 1 wrote:I now pronounce them as acceptable alternate-standard for Hotchkiss 25mm guns as needed. Might think about thickening up the barrels around the mountings to give it more of the look of that characteristic Hotchkiss fluting, but otherwise close enough for my wargaming purposes.

You just HAD to mention those cooling-fins, didn't ya? Ok, IF you really care, we could fix that, & lenghten the barrel a bit too...
First, cut off the Breda gun tube back to the sight area.
You could wind-your-own finned tube from rod and thin copper electrical wire. Or-

Get ahold of some old guitar strings. I had some laying around in my model RR stuff...
Pick one the right diameter for the cooling fins, & unwind enough of the brass or copper wrapping for the straight section of the tube.
Then just cut it off with enough "fins" left to do the job & glue in on the Breda gun.
I have one small string that is wrapped with a "double coil" of copper. You can unwind one strand and leave the other- creating small gaps between the cooling fins...
Is there an emoticon for "hysterical laughter"?
Seriously, I just tried these; though I haven't "cut & spliced" one onto a gun yet...

GHQ- How about saving your customers remaining sanity?
The French used these; however briefly. Germany and Romania used them.
Imperial Japan bought the license to make them in "vast quantities". How 'bout it?
Regards,
JimR.
edit- and don't forget- if we ever get French gunners; a lot of Romanian AA crews wore their old Adrian helmets too...

Old guitar strings work great for bunches of things. I use the .009s for my 1/2400 aircraft, and mount them on....well, pennies (treasury dept, im sorry!) Works good though=)

Thanks again for the suggestion. The Bredas arrived today and I think they will work perfectly. Now to sort out what to do with those Italian trucks that came with them. I'll probably be doing some Italians sometime, so I'll put them aside for later, with the travel version of the guns. I can add a French leader figure to each base, and work in anther figure of some sort and will be ready to go.

Tom Oxley