Jeeps with 60mm motars?

jefferysl · Post by **jefferysl** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:21 pm

I'm putting together a US Mechanized Cavalry Squadron, and need some information on the types of jeeps contained in US-11. A scout section of a recon troop consisted of 3 jeeps with M1919 .30 cal MG and 3 with 60mm mortars. Were these mortars built into the jeep or just carried? I didn't see any mortars mentioned in US-11's descriprtion....

groundlber · Post by **groundlber** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:01 am

Jeffrysl - Based on everything I've read and a couple of long ago conversations with one of my college professors ( a WW II armored cavalryman and Battle of the Bulge veteran) the jeeps were just supposed to be transport vehicles. The machine guns could be fired from a pillar mount, but I don't think a jeep was strong enough to take the recoil from a mortar more than once. Having said this, I'm sure someone will have a source that disproves my statement.
One other anecdote from the professor: his unit had no use for the 57mm antitank guns. They had enough bazookas to deal with light German armor and if they ran into the heavy stuff they called in their own armor. The 57mm ammo had value though; if they found a British unit they would trade the ammo for booze. At least, that was his story.
Groundlber

WHM · Post by **WHM** » Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:11 pm

Sorry, taking a chance here and to start I do not know what is meant by US-11, but what you
are asking sounds a lot like the old organization for ACAV platoons. These had a scout section of 4 vehicles w/the Plt. Ldr in a 5th, a three tank section, a infantry section in an M-113 and a mortar carrier.

Use of jeeps w/M1919s was done in the National Guard while the Regular Army was in M-114s.

When the M-114s were phased out M-113s were used. Think the Guard also went to M-113s as well.

If however I missed the point of the question then to quote Emily Latella, "never mind".

av8rmongo · Post by **av8rmongo** » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:25 am

WHM,

I think he was talking about a WWII organization - hence the US-11.

Paul

Scott Washburn · Post by **Scott Washburn** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:53 am

There was some discussion of this on another site and the information presented seemed to indicate that the 60mm mortars could not be fired from the jeep, but could be unloaded and set up in a matter of seconds and fired from the ground.

Thomaso827 · Post by **Thomaso827** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:40 pm

There's a book out, Recon, I think, by a scout jeep driver from the early days of the US in North Africa, Sicily and Italy. He was wounded at Casino and spent the rest of the war in recovery. But he mentions the mortar being used and always used dismounted. The mortar jeep also often towed a trailer for the ammo. The scouts were often used dismounted for additional MG firepower. From the Battleground WW2 module covering the cavalry from D-Day on, they claim that the mortars were dropped unofficially, and that the second jeep was fitted out with the MG just as the first one. The 30s could be fired from the jeep - 50s were sometimes mounted, and you can find photos of them in use, but everything I was taught as a scout jeep driver in the early 70s was that the 50 would shake loose every nut and bolt in the jeep. I dont think the M-151 was any less strong than the WW2 jeep, so would have to assume the same issue there. The official TO&E of the scouts seems to maintain the mortar throughout the WW2 period, but the actual operation seems to support the loss of the mortar and the keeping of the second MG jeep. This was also the makeup of the scout platoon I served in in 1976 Korea. With so much of the post D-Day war of movement, the scout platoon would be prepared to fire from mounted, but what I can find shows that they were also prepared to dismount as quickly as possible, something shown in some game systems as "bailing out skills". A great phrase that somewhat shows how those scouts were used was Patton's words supposedly to a scout platoon leader, "Drive down the road until you get blown up."

Tom Oxley

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:28 pm

[quote=" A great phrase that somewhat shows how those scouts were used was Patton's words supposedly to a scout platoon leader, "Drive down the road until you get blown up."

Tom Oxley[/quote]

This is the version of Patton's quip we had in the Air Cav, "When in doubt, burn a scout." and the target handoff to the gunships was "The target is marked by the burning scout." Having flown scouts, it didn't seem so funny at the time...

But to quote that forgotten Civil War source, "Whoever saw a dead Cavalryman?"

Scouts Out!

Thomaso827 · Post by **Thomaso827** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:53 pm

Yep, I was a scout from 74-78, driving scout jeeps in Korea, then flying in OH-58s in a Cobra unit in 6th Cavalry Brigade at Hood. Got to see both sides of it that way. Those scout pilots I worked with were still mostly Vietnam vets at that point. I got trained on M-114s, and got to Hood just in time to see them all towed to the impact areas for targets.

Tom Oxley

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:38 am

Thomaso827 wrote:Yep, I was a scout from 74-78, driving scout jeeps in Korea, then flying in OH-58s in a Cobra unit in 6th Cavalry Brigade at Hood. Got to see both sides of it that way. Those scout pilots I worked with were still mostly Vietnam vets at that point. I got trained on M-114s, and got to Hood just in time to see them all towed to the impact areas for targets.

Tom Oxley

Tom, no kidding! My first tour out of flight school was flying 58s in C Trp 7-17 Cav, 6th CBAC in November of 81. I learned a ton from the handful of Vietnam Vets that were still there.
Must have been all those trips flying the corridor down motor pool road that gave us the love of micro-armor.

Small world.

Thomaso827 · Post by **Thomaso827** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:54 pm

Oh, my. Hmm. I was the scout enlisted section chief in 77-78 after making E-5 as I got there. C Troop 7-17 was my home for about 18 months. They flew for a major restructuring test for the 1st Cav for much of 78, and I don't know how much white smoke we dropped simulating arty missions - must have been tons, though. We used the Loran gear to get as close as possible to grid coordinates given for fire missions. Went through the loss of a child in Jan 78 and re-upped for chaplain assistant, which I did the rest of my career, retiring in '95. But still wearing my aviation crewmember wings. Really is a small world. They had started a school near the flight line for 19D2F training before I left, but I already had orders and they wouldn't let me take the school for something I had allreayd been doing so long. I kept the identifier on my secondary MOS the rest of my career, though. Think I was the best trained 71M the Army had.

Tom Oxley