7th Panzer, 1940

rangerguy · Post by **rangerguy** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:04 am

Hey folks,

I've misplaced my copy of Microarmor the game and was wondering whether or not there were sufficient TO&Es in it in which to reconstruct the 7th panzer. I have a rough idea as to the composition of the 25th Panzer Rgt, but not the Shutzen Brigade and the supporting abteilungs. I'm trying to put together a force to wargame early blitzkrieg in France, so I would like to find out whether I should create the TO&E lists for the game or not.

Thanks for any help!

groundlber · Post by **groundlber** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:48 am

Rangerguy - This information is from Command Decision's 'Armies of World War Two". IN 1940, the 7th Panzer division had a motorized infantry brigade of two regiments. Each regiment had two battalions instead of three; plus a (separate?) motorcycle battalion. The brigade also had an attached battery of sp 150mm infantry guns. Command Decision uses a one stand = one platoon figure scale.
Steve Zaloga's Blitzkreig book has some information on the unit designations, but my copy isn't currently near the surface anywhere. If I can find it, I'll include that information.
I hope this helps. Happy Thanksgiving.
Groundlber

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:18 am

Try this, it may be of some help-

http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011_ger ... pz_07.html

JimR.

groundlber · Post by **groundlber** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:16 am

Rangerguy - I found my copy of 'Blitzkreig' while looking for something else. Not that much information; Rifle Brigade 7, Recon battalion 37 and pioneer battalion 58. The sp infantry gun battery was #705. (it was attached to the rifle brigade). Couldn't find anything on the artillery units.
Groundlber

rangerguy · Post by **rangerguy** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:18 am

Hey thanks guys, this is great.

How would you all represent the kradschutzen motorcycle battalion in a game? I was thinking of using motorcycles with sidecars, but I am not sure if they fought from their motorcylces or would dismount before any engagement was made. Thanks again!

groundlber · Post by **groundlber** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:43 am

Rangerguy - I'm fairly certain the motorcycles were just supposed to be ttransportation. I use the motorcycles with sidecars on stands to show the unit mounted, then use infantry or weapons stands for when the unit is dismounted.
I don't think the German panzergrenadiers or motorized infanty developed the 'death before dismounting' attitude of the American mech infantry.
Groundlber

Ritter · Post by **Ritter** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:08 am

When the German motorcycle/Kubel Infantry were in their heyday, they brought the one thing that the average WWI foot slogger didn't have - quick mobility. They were able to move with the attacking armor or even ahead to suppress or engage AT threats at a breakneck speed compared to the previous war's Infantry. This was something that the Poles and Frenchmen where not prepared for. As every good tanker knows, you need armor to take ground but you need Infantry to hold it.

As the war progressed, Truck and Halftrack infantry replaced motorcycle trupens but didn't have the same shock effect that the earlier kradschutz Soldats did.

To game this, earlier formations should have a certain shock effect built into their use - ie lax enemy or otherwise unprepared troops. Later formations ...well...load the HE and canister!

Troy

rangerguy · Post by **rangerguy** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:19 am

Thanks again guys!

I'm trying to put together a portion of the 7th panzer and a French DLC together for a campain. Do the German infantry packs have a lot of rifles? The TO&Es for the Schutzen (early panzergrenadiers) regiment has all the squards armed with rifles and mg34s.

Does anyone know anything about the French Calvary units of 1940? I assume they dismounted like the motorcyclists, but could be wrong. Also does anyone have any sources for the different uniforms that they had? I see under the different TO&Es that some calvary are refferred to as Hussars or Chasseurs, etc, and was wondering if the difference was in name only.

Now I just have to find some Citroen halftracks for my motorized cav, and a bunch of krupp protzes for the Jerries!

groundlber · Post by **groundlber** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:10 am

Rangerguy- The titles of French Cavalry units simply reflected the historical parentage of the particular unit. There would be no significant difference in field uniform, particularly in 6mm scale (unless your painting supplies include an electron microscope-some of the photos on this site make me wonder). The horses, trucks, or APC's were supposed to be battle taxis, the troops were supposed to fight on foot..
Groundlber

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:37 pm

Hello,

I was looking for a clarification of the 7th PzDiv in France.

I read the Nafziger orbat titled "German 7th panzer division - 10 may 1940".

As company HQ vehicle, two PzIII are issued. Both for the 25th Pz Reg and to to 66th Pz Batt.

It sound me strange that to an almost full Pz38(t) formation, the comp commanders are issued such cospicuous (compared to the rest) vehicles.

Then, browsing around to other Nafziger documents, I found a simple list of tank strengh at 10 May, and the 7th pz doesn't have a single PzIII.

After all, this is a secondary problem, but I would like to know if did really were some PzIII in that divsion in France, just for the sake to know it.

Thank You!

L.

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:40 pm

Here is the incriminated orbat:

11th Panzer Brigade:
25th Panzer Regiments
Headquarters
4 Motorcycles
2 Motorcycles with sidecars
2 Cars (Kfz 15)
2 Cars (Kfz 21)
Signals Platoon
Platoon Headquarters
1 Motorcycle
1 Motorcycle with sidecar
1 Car (Kfz 15/1)
1 Pz 38(t)
2 Light Telephone Sections
1 Car (Kfz 15/1)
2 Armored Radio Sections, each with:
1 Command Pz-38(t)
Light Tank Platoon
5 Pz-38(t)
2 Battalions, each with
Battalion Headquarters
2 Motorcycles
3 Cars (Kfz 15)
1 Truck (1.5 ton)
2
1 Headquarters Company
Company HQ
2 Motorcycles
1 Car (Kfz 15)
Signal Platoon
HQ Section
1 Motorcycle
1 Car (Kfz 15/2)
1 Pz-38(t)
2 Telephone Sections, each with:
1 Car (Kfz 15/1)
2 Armored Radio Sections, each with
1 Command Pz-38 (t)
Light Tank Platoon
5 Pz Mk II (Sd Kfz 121)
Motorcycle Platoon
Headquarters Section
1 Motorcycle
2 Motorcycle with sidecars
4 Motorcycle Sections, each with:
1 Motorcycle
2 Motorcycles with sidecars
1 LMG
AA Platoon
4 AA Cars with dual machine guns
Engineer Platoon
Headquarters Section
1 Car (Kfz 15)
3 Sections, each with:
1 Truck (3-ton)
1 Engineer Section with 1 LMGs
1 Section
1 Truck (3-ton)
1 Engineer Section
2 Light Panzer Companies, each with:
Company Headquarters
3 Motorcycles
1 Car (Kfz 15/2)
2 Pz Mk III (Sd Kfz 141)
1 Light Tank Platoons, each with
5 Pz Mk II (Sd Kfz 121)
3 Medium Tank Platoons, each with
5 Pz-38(t)
1 Medium Panzer Company
Company Headquarters
3 Motorcycles
1 Car (Kfz 15/2)
1 Pz Mk II (Sd Kfz 121)
1 Pz Mk IV (Sd Kfz 161)
1 Light Tank Platoon
5 Pz Mk II (Sd Kfz 121)
1 Medium Tank Platoon
4 Pz Mk IV (Sd Kfz 161)
1 Medium Tank Platoon
3 Pz Mk IV (Sd Kfz 161)
3
1 (mot) Reserve Platoon
1 Motorcycle with sidecar
2 Pz Mk II (Sd Kfz 121)
3 Pz-38(t)
1 Pz Mk IV (Sd Kfz 161)

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:48 pm

Luca this is the paper strengh of tthe regiment. The battalion type should apply to other tank units too. 66th (part f the 11 Brigade/ as well as those of 6th and 8th Panzer.

On paper the companies had a modified organization with 2 Pz III and 15 Pz 38 (or Pz 35) instead of the standard 2+15 Paz III, but the Pz III wewrw actually missing.

Actually there were other differences as Jenz gives the total strengtyh for there divisions as follows on May 1940:
6th Panzer: : 60 Pz II, 116 Pz 35t, 31 Pz IV, 14 Bef35t
7th Panzer: 34 Pz I, 68 Pz II, 91 Pz38t, 24 PzIV, 8 PzBef 38t
8th Panzer: 58 PzII, 116 Pz38t, 23 PzIV, 15 PzBef38t

As you can see noone had Pz III and the /th had many Pzi.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:48 pm

Luca this is the paper strengh of tthe regiment. The battalion type should apply to other tank units too. 66th (part f the 11 Brigade/ as well as those of 6th and 8th Panzer.

On paper the companies had a modified organization with 2 Pz III and 15 Pz 38 (or Pz 35) instead of the standard 2+15 Paz III, but the Pz III wewrw actually missing.

Actually there were other differences as Jenz gives the total strengtyh for there divisions as follows on May 1940:
6th Panzer: : 60 Pz II, 116 Pz 35t, 31 Pz IV, 14 Bef35t
7th Panzer: 34 Pz I, 68 Pz II, 91 Pz38t, 24 PzIV, 8 PzBef 38t
8th Panzer: 58 PzII, 116 Pz38t, 23 PzIV, 15 PzBef38t

As you can see noone had Pz III and the /th had many Pzi.

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:23 am

Rangeguy
you will have to find a supplier for the Citroen Kegress P19 halftarck of the dragon portÃ¨ of DLC. GHQ does not make it, Theree is one in Scotia but I do not the quality.

No problem for AMD. For motorcycles you may use the BMW but wil have toi file a bit the helmets of the men.

If you need any details om the French organisation ask, I have nough info on them

TAMMY · Post by **TAMMY** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:15 am

Rangeguy I forgot a detail

There were pratically no KLubewagen in Blitzkrieg.
The pÃ¨roducion started with 25 "pilot" casrs in April 1940
In May were assembed 100 cars and in June 200.
The 1000th Kubel was completed in december 1940.

The motorcycles were R-12 and R-71 as the well known R-35 and R-75 arrived in 1941 but in our scale is difficult to tell the difference..

7th Panzer, 1940

7th Panzer, 1940

7th Panzer Division

7th Panzer Div. - Subordinate units

7th Panzer

French Cavalry