Page 1 of 1

"House Busting" Rules ?

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:51 pm
by robdab
Hello All,

My group usually games with Spearhead/Modern Spearhead and our gaming tables are graced with the long out of production "Hardcover" paper 1:285 scale buildings.

We like the idea of the "destroyed" version of each being overlapped by the "intact" model but are dis-satisfied with the rules that we currently use for building destruction during scenarios. The chance of them catching fire varies with the type of weapon used for the destruction, which we like, but the fire duration & spread mechanisms seem poor.

Our efforts include accounting for building construction type also with stone being much harder to destroy or burn than wood frame etc.

I just wondered what rules others use for trashing the structures that seem to litter most scenario battlefields ?

Robert in Toronto
Urban Renewal - One Building at a Time.

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:18 am
by robdab
Gents,

Over 100 looks at this thread and NOBODY is willing to tell me what building destruction rules they use in micro-armor games ???

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:09 pm
by opsctr
Doesn't really apply in a platoon representative game. Buildings are more PUB since a model represents several buildings or a block of buildings.

If you are dealing with skirmish games and single buildings it makes a difference. We use die rolls to indicate the chance of fire which depends in the first place on what is firing at the target and the amount of wood, paper, cloth, (fuel) etc., in the structure. HE doesn't always mean fire. WP usually means fire.

Make up a table, ...roll the dice, your guess is as good as anyone's. Ops06

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:19 pm
by Ritter
I posted an answer to your question on the Micro Armor Yahoo group and for some reason, it rejected my answer...?

Troy

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:07 pm
by jb
The BU rules already apply if you are using SH/MSH. If you really want to apply some sort of "burning building etc" thing then as Will mentioned your guess is as good as any...

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:45 am
by Scott Washburn
I have a vested interest in seeing buildings destroyed during games (but I can't mention why here) :)

I play FoW and these are the house rules I use:

Rules for Destroying Buildings

Before the game begins the construction type of each building should be specified. There are four types:

Wood: 2 damage points, Saving throw of 5+, Fire Save Modifier of 0
Brick: 3 damage points, Saving throw of 4+, Fire Save Modifier of +1
Stone: 4 damage points, Saving throw of 3+, Fire Save Modifier of +2
Concrete: 5 damage points, Saving throw of 2+, Fire Save Modifier of +3

Note that the number of damage points is for average size houses. Larger structures could have more hits or, alternately, be divided into separate sections which would be treated as individual buildings.

Firing at Buildings

A player can attack a building in two different ways. One is to fire at the teams occupying the building. Any hits on the team may cause ‘collateral damage’ to the building. In this case, fire at the enemy teams as you normally would. Any hit on a team inside the building also causes a hit on the building, which is resolves as explained below. Any building under a barrage or bomb template may be hit like any other target even if they are unoccupied.

A player can also fire exclusively at the buildings. In this case, the building is hit (or ranged in) on a base throw of 3+, which is only modified due to range (for direct fire). Hits scored on the building have no effect on the occupants unless the building collapses, in which case they are affected as explained below. Artillery or bombing attacks may be directed against buildings but will not affect any teams under the template, even if they are not in the buildings (not entirely realistic, but this is to prevent players from firing at buildings to ‘accidentally’ catch enemy troops under the template).

Destroying Buildings
Buildings are destroyed when they suffer enough damage points to destroy them as noted on the table above. The procedure is described below:

1. Weapons must have a firepower rating of 5+ or better to be able to harm a building, although heavy machine guns or vehicle-mounted machine guns have a chance to set a building on fire (see below).

2. If a building is hit it must make a saving throw using the appropriate save value from the table above. If the save is made there is no damage. If the save is failed then the attacker must make his firepower role. If this is successful, the building takes one damage point. Damage can be indicated with a small puff of smoke or other marker.

3. When a building suffers damage equal to its damage points the building collapses. Any teams inside the building suffer a hit and must make a normal saving throw to survive. If they survive, they now occupy the wreckage of the building. Players may wish to experiment with applying negative save modifiers for teams inside large, heavily constructed buildings.

Air Attack

Bombs are much more likely to damage a building than cannon fire (a 500lb bomb has more than ten times the high explosive charge of a 105mm shell). Any building which is under the attack template of an aircraft dropping bombs can be hit and if it is, it will suffer 1D6 hits instead of just one hit. Each hit must be saved for separately as detailed above.

Fire
Buildings may catch fire due to enemy fire. Use the procedure below:

1. Whenever a building suffers a damage point an additional roll is made to see if the building catches fire.

2. The firing player makes a firepower roll for the weapon which inflicted the damage. The firepower rating is modified by the construction type of the building as given on the table above. If the firepower roll is failed, there is no fire. If it is successful the building catches fire.

3. Each turn that a building is on fire it must make a saving throw or suffer another damage point. This is done (appropriately enough) during the fire phase of each player. If the building takes enough damage to collapse due the fire, it does so per the rules above.

4. Teams inside a burning building may attempt to put the fire out during their own movement phase. A successful skill role extinguishes the fire. The team may do nothing else that turn.

5. Any platoon which has teams inside a burning building must pass a motivation test during each of its movement phases to remain in the building. If the test is failed, the player must move all of his teams out of the building.

6. Teams attempting to assault into a burning building must take a motivation test to do so.

7. Heavy and vehicle-mounted machine guns cannot damage a building, but may set it on fire using tracer ammunition. When machine guns hit a building, the building makes a saving throw for each hit. For every unsuccessful save, the machine gun takes a firepower role to set a fire. Note that with the modifier, machine guns can only set fire to wooden buildings.

8. Flamethrowers will automatically set fire to any building hit.

9. Players could modify the chance of fire up or down due to weather conditions if they wish by increasing or reducing the fire save modifier. If you don’t want to be bothered with keeping track of fires, just say it rained heavily before the battle.

Optional Rules

1. Fires Spread – A burning building may ignite other adjacent buildings. Roll for the wind direction Each turn buildings downwind of a burning building may catch fire. The building makes a normal saving throw with a +1 modifier for each inch away from the burning building.

2. Fires Going Out – Fires might go out on their own. In any turn that a fire fails to inflict a damage point on a building, the building gets a saving throw. If it is successful, the fire goes out. If not, the fire continues to burn.

3. Initial Barrage in Big Push Mission – Each building (even unoccupied ones) in the defender’s deployment zone receives 1D6 hits during the initial barrage. The building makes its saving throw as normal. Use a 2+ firepower rating for the attacker.

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:26 am
by Thomaso827
I was going to answer when I discovered my Piquet rules didnt address it either. I've been watching for some ideas I can use as a house rule. Off hand, occupied buildings that casualties are created in would be destroyed if the unit inside are completely eliminated, damaged if the occupants are supressed or routed, but this doesnt take fire into account. The Piquet system just uses building bases to represent the least number of buildings that an element would require to deploy into, so it doesn't necessarily work out to one building = one building, even at the basic squad scale. I might borrow flame and flame spread rules from ASL.

Tom Oxley

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:17 am
by Mk 1
The Mein Panzer rules I use have a whole "drop in" chapter on structures.

The basic construction of this gaming system is a set of "core rules", and then several "drop in" chapters that may, or may not be used as players see fit.

The structures rules focus on 1x1in blocks of structure -- if your building is larger, it is 2 linked structures. Anything that happens happens to one 1x1 block of the building.

As metioned in other cases, each structure should be rated (before the game if you think of it) as to what type of structure it is (light, medium or heavy construction) and how many "blocks" it is made of.

Then there are simple rules for how hits by various weapons affect the structures.

(Sorry if that's a bit vague ... it is about 2 1/2 pages of rules, too much to repeat here in detail, and besides I've only played with the structures "drop in" twice in the past year and a half, so I'm not really fluent with them yet...)

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:51 pm
by BattlerBritain
Over at the Fire and Fury Battlefront WW2 forums a couple of guys called Richard and Paddy have put together some pretty good house rules for Buil-Up-Sector fire and destruction.

Fire
BUAs and certain vegetation types such as woods and crops can catch fire when hit by HE (direct or indirect fire) or flamethrowers. Also fire can spread from adjacent to burning BUSs or fires. Fires in BUSs are assumed to cover the entire BUS. Fires in the open assumed to be the size of a small IDF template. To check if a fire burns conduct the following procedure once for a small HE template, twice for a large HE template and once
for each instance where direct fire or close combat involves an HE capable element (in this scenario, 75mm leIGs, ATGs, tanks, mortars and howitzers(not panzerfausts or PIATs)) using TSVG characteristics or any flamethrower then check to see if a fire is started. Also each turn check for each vehicle fire or other fire to see whether it spreads:

Throw one d10 and modify as follows:
-5 for water feature
-2 for open ground
-1 for cleared woods or orchards
+0 for Thickets, Brush or Woods with underbrush, Tall Crops or Stone Buildings
+1 Wooden buildings
+/- for environmental factors (+1 hot and dry, -1 damp or wet, -2 raining)
+/- indirect fire factor or tactical factor at 2â€￾ range (i.e. +1/+2/etc. for concentration /
thickened etc, +4 for flamethrower)
-2 if troops spend manoeuvre action trying to extinguish fire (no other movement or firing
permitted)
-1 for every 4 turns that the fire has been burning.

Modified score:
10 or
more
Fire starts or spreads. If it spreads it will spread to the
closest downwind adjacent aiming points in the BUA or
if in the open down wind. If a fire cannot spread
downwind as there is already fire burning there it will
spread too the nearest available aiming point or
combustible area. Fire will not cross a road or water
feature.
8-9 Fire continues to burn as before.
If fire is in a BUS one of the aim points (randomly
determined) turns to rubble.
5-7 Fire continues to burn as before.
4 or less Fire is extinguished or burns itself out.

If a troop or gun stand lies under a fire template then there is no immediate effect.
However, the element becomes disordered after its next manoeuvre phase if it remains in position and the fire continues to burn.

Destroying BUS and Rubble
IDF Firing against BUS
If a BUS is under an IDF template then roll a dice and modify as follows:
+/- IDF factor against TGsV,
-1 for each of the BUS aim points not under a template.
+1 for each level of the BUS – i.e. level 0 = +0, level 1 = +1 etc…)

If the result is 8 or more then one of the aim points hit (determined randomly from the aim
points that remain unaffected) is turned into rubble and places a 20mm (1/2") deep strip of rubble into the adjoining terrain covering the length of the side of the BUS.
If the result is less than 8 there is no effect.

Note: the strip of rubble would turn a street into a defile. Strips of rubble on each side of
the road would block the street.

Troops conformed to a BUS aim point that has been turned into rubble may not claim to be
in IP however may still claim to be in a BUS.

For stone buildings once all 4 aim points have been turned to rubble and the whole BUS is deemed to have collapsed and is completely turned to rubble. Occupying troops conduct Bail out checks.

For wooden buildings once any 2 aim points have been turned to rubble and the whole
BUS is deemed to have collapsed and is completely turned to rubble. Occupying troops
conduct Bail out checks.

If using multi-level BUS rules the number of turns required to turn buildings to rubble is
halved for tower structures (i.e. 2 for stone and 1 for wooden BUS).

For continuous buildings the number of turns required to turn buildings to rubble is reduced by 1 (i.e. 3 for stone and 1 for wooden BUS).

Multi-level structures are destroyed in sequence one layer at a time but remember towers (T structures) do not have lower levels (apart form the ground level structure) below them.

Direct Fire Firing against BUS
If a BUS, or an element inside a BUS, is targeted by DF and the firing unit achieves a KO
result by DF with a modified die roll of 12 or more for stone structures or 11 or more for
wooden structures then the aim point fired at is turned to rubble in the same manner as
above.
Troops in Collapsed BUS
Troops caught in a BUS that collapses and is completely turned to rubble conduct a Bail
out check with the following modifiers:
+1 if troops were disordered when BUS collapsed
+2 if troops were suppressed when BUS collapsed
+3 if troops were in good order when BUS collapsed
Guns caught in a BUS that collapses and is completely turned to rubble are destroyed.

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:59 am
by tstockton
Ummmm, I really don't like sounding stupid, but... :oops:

BUA?

BUS?

TSVG?

IDF? (InDirect Fire?)

TGsV?

IP?

In advance -- thanks for 'splain' things to me!

Regards,
Tom Stockton

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:57 pm
by BattlerBritain
BUA? = Built Up Area (some people call them Towns, villages etc)

BUS? = Built Up Sector, also known as a House or block.

TSVG? = F+FBF target category of Troop, Soft vehicle or Gun

IDF? (InDirect Fire?) = Yep - you got that one.

TGsV? = F+FBF target category of Troop, Soft vehicle or Gun

IP? = Improved Position, general term, used in the military a lot. Can also stand for Inbound point for aircraft Mission/strike planning.

I don't mean to sound dumb, but ...

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:56 am
by Donald M. Scheef
Don't feel bad, tstockton, about asking a perfectly good question.

A part of my job is writing technical training materials for a relatively high-tech industry. One of the first things you learn is that ALL acronyms and initialisms MUST be clearly defined the first time you use them in ANY document. This is a practice I recommend for everyone. This is a pretty wide-open forum with a wide range of experience in the readers.

Thanks, BattlerBritain, for providing the requested information. For myself (as an infrequent gamer in land scenarios), I had to look back to see what F+FBF means.

Don S.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:49 am
by dnichols
Here is a FAQ for how building destruction is handled in the GHQ Micro-Armor: The Game rules from the author/designer.

Here are some guidelines for destroying buildings and emplacements from the
author, John Fernandes Jr., of Micro Armor The Game. Interesting stuff.

What will it would take to reduce buildings to rubble? And once this occurs,
what should the effects be?

Answer: Buildings use their 'Personnel' bonus (4
for Light Buildings, 6 for Heavy Buildings) as a defense value. Whenever you
shell a
building (occupied or not), compare its defense value to a CRT die-roll If
occupied, it's the
same die-roll you applied to the occupants).

All 'Suppressed', 'Disorganized', and 'Eliminated' results apply, except that
BUILDINGS
don't get to roll during the 'Marker Removal
Phase'.

Once 'Eliminated' the building is reduced to
rubble. Light Buildings become 'Rough Terrain
2', Heavy Buildings become 'Rough terrain 3'.

Rules 11.41, 11.42, and 11.43 in the WWII rules
Mention what happens if Medium or Heavy Improved Positions are destroyed by
fire. They
become Rough Terrain 1 or Rough terrain 2.

By way of explanation, Improved Positions do not cover the whole 10,000 square
meters
of the square-inch they occupy, only a portion of it. Buildings should generally
be
considered to cover the whole 10,000 square meters.

Also, the "integrity" of improved positions is an
important factor in their value. Once you
"Crack" a pillbox, it's not nearly as effective
defensively. Therefore, the defense bonus and movement penalty are comparatively
higher
for collapsed buildings than collapsed improved positions.


(A typo in the rulebook left out what their defense value should be for this
purpose. OOPS!
It should be their personnel defense bonuses as above, i.e. 5 or 7.)

If I shell some heavy emplacements, can infantry move back in afterwards and if
so, what
would the defense effects be?

Ans: As above, the Improved Positions simply becomes rough terrain of the
appropriate
type.

You can experiment with allowing Light Improved
Positions to remain on the map after they are
unoccupied.

Remember, they can't be destroyed for the simple
reason that the torn-up ground remaining after light Improved Positions are
destroyed
has pretty much the same combat effect as the positions themselves.

Note the "line-of-Sight" effects of reducing buildings to rubble. All buildings
block
line-of-sight. After Light buildings become Rough
Terrain 2, the rubble only blocks line-of-sight to or from personnel stands.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:57 pm
by voltigeur
I know this discussion is about 4 to 1 type rule sets but I'lll throw an idea into the discussion. I play 1:1 so this may not apply. It does however, yeilds a nasty and brutal urban game at Fireteam to Company level.

In my rule set your troops have a choice to target the infantry that is inside a building or to target the building itself. Lets look at a farm house held by a squad of German infantry vs. a Platoon of US 1/2 track infantry.

After the germans fire on the US patrol the US sets up 2 squads abreast and one in reserve that can manuver. The US player can make one of 3 choices. He can try to 1) aquire the infantry and shoot for destruction. (The chance to aquire and hit the infantry will be very low not to mention negative modifiers for the building.) 2) The US palyer can fire for suppression. In this case the US troops only have to aquire the building. (Almost a given)As a unit armed with Semi Automatic weapons and the attached 30 cal LMG would give a 60% chance per fire team to suppress with a 17% of destroying the Germans. If successful the 3rd squad can manuver in relative safety. 3) The platoon leader can bring up a bazooka (told you this gets nasty.) the Gunner only has to aquire the house, and fires at the house with over an 80% chance to hit with a 50% chance of a fire or a 30% chance of collapse. If successful the infantry inside, would then test for suppression (almost guaranteed suppression and most likely neutralization. If the 3rd squad enters the rubble while the Germans are neutralized they will automatically surrender, If they are suppressed they will have to mele with the Americans at a 40% base dissadvatage.

This is a over simplification of this scenario. The American player has to decide how close to get the 3rd squad in before he fires the bazooka and destroys the building. I also am not covering what the germans can do to counter this.

I don't know if this helps since at the higher level each building on the table actually represents a block of buildings. In my system a house is just a house etc.