OK, so we have the Wehrmacht ’47. What do you suppose the Allied forces would be fielding in 1947?
For the Americans, M4, M4A1 and M4A3 90mm Wet with HVSS
From R.P. Hunnicutt's "Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank". For discussion purposes only.
From Steven Zaloga's "Armored Thunderbolt". For discussion purposes only.
I wonder it the US Army would have looked at Sherman Kangaroos APCs for the Armored Infantry Battalions?
Found on the Internet. For discussion purposes only.
The US were also looking at mounting the 90mm M36 turret on the M18 GMC to make the "Super Hellcat".
From US Tank Destroyers in Action by Jim Mesko. For discussion purposes only.
From US Tank Destroyers in Action by Jim Mesko. For discussion purposes only.
From US Tank Destroyers in Action by Jim Mesko. For discussion purposes only.
How about a Jumbo Sherman Crocodile with a 105mm howitzer?
The P-47N with lots and lots of 5" rockets?
The British are going to be getting the Centurion Mk 1, they already have the Comet and would probably make use of more Sherman Kangaroos.
Most of the US 1947 models could be fairly easy to produce, just mix and match hulls and turrets.
Of course, all of these what-if models could also be used in a hypothetical war between the Western Allies and the Soviets in post 1945.
Soviets get T44 amongst others while British get Centurion I and Tortoise. US gets T28 and SuperPersing. These are just the beginning. I would also like to see Luftwaffe '46 aircraft (specifically tactical bombers such as the JU187,287) for inclusion.
Not everyone is pleased with this list.
Here is list of items that I came up with that would be good for the '47. With that said, there is no way that GHQ can make all of them. I would recommend that they concentrate on the items that also could be used in early cold war scenarios. With two or three items from each country, it could add many possibilities to '47 scenarios.
France
AMX-50/90: Original prototype heavy tank designed to replace the ARL-44. Armed with the 90mm gun from the ARL-44
AMX-50/120: Final prototype armed with a 120mm gun; three different hulls
AMX-VCI: Early Cold War APC based on the AMX-13 chassis; however, given the AMX-13 is a option for '47, then the APC variant would not be that far away.
ARL-44: French Heavy Tank built at the end of 1945
EBR: Developed by France in 1946/47. Three different turrets: SA-49 (75mm), SA-50 (75mm High Velocity), or F2 (90mm)
Hotchkiss SP1A: Tracked recon vehicle with a 20mm gun. Lead to the German SPz 11-2.
Panhard 178B: Armed with a 47mm cannon. Production started late in 1945 after France was freed.
Individual WWII North African Infantry
Individual WWII North African Heavy Weapons
Individual WWII North African Engineer
Individual WWII Infantry
Individual WWII Heavy Weapons
Individual WWII Engineer
Germany
Ar-234B Blitz: Jet bomber used to attack the Remegen bridgehead.
E-50b: Armed with the long barrel 88L100
E-75 A-Turret: Armed with 88L100
E-75 C-Turret: Armed with a 128L55
E-100 B-Turret: Armed with a 150L38
E-100 C-Turret: Armed with 170L37
Flakpanzer 38: Planned SPAAG based on a widen Hetzer chassis to mount dual or triple 30mm, 37mm, or 50mm anti-aircraft guns
Flakpanzer Flakzwilling 8.8cm auf E-100: E-100 with twin 88mm
Flugabwehrkanone 214 5cm Anti-Aircraft Gun: Used redundant 5cm Anti-Tank Barrels. Would have been available in '47.
Gerat 58 Flugabwehrkanone 5.5cm Anti-Aircraft Gun: Three built by the end of the war. Great '47 anti-aircraft gun.
Geschutzwagen Tiger fur 21cm: SP 210mm howitzer mounted on a Tiger chassis
Goliath: Light remote controlled demolition vehicle
Haubitze 4 30.5cm Howitzer: Required two Tiger II chassis (one at each end) as prime-movers
Ho-229 / Go-229: Proposed flying wing fighter-bomber armed with 20mm cannons, missiles, and bombs
Jagd E-50a: JadgPanther replacement armed with the long barrel 88L100.
Jagd E-50b: JagdPanther replacement armed with a 105mm gun from the E-75.
Jagd E-75a: JagdTiger replacement armed with a 128L55 gun.
Jagd E-75b: JagdTiger replacement armed with a 150L38 gun.
Jagd E-75c: JagdTiger replacement armed with a 170L37 gun.
Jagd E-100a Krokodil: Super heavy tank destroyer armed with 150L38 gun.
Jagd E-100b Krokodil: Super heavy tank destroyer armed with 170L37 gun.
Jagd E-100c Krokodil: Super heavy tank destroyer armed with 210L55 gun.
Jagdpanzer IV/L70(V): Jagdpanzer variant with raised superstructure
Kanone 4 24cm Field Gun: Required two Tiger II chassis (one at each end) as prime-movers
Leichte Feldhaubitze 43: New 105mm howitzer that was schedule to begin production in late 1945.
Maus B-Turret: Maus with 150L38
Maus C-Turret: Maus with 170L37
Pak 44 12.8 cm: 12.8 cm Anti-Tank Gun
Panther 2 with Night Vision Equipment
Panzerwerfer 42 auf SWS: MRL based on the Wehrmachtsschlepper
PWK-600 6cm Recoilless Rifle: Would have been available in '47
PWK-800 8cm Recoilless Rifle: Several hundred built by the of the war
PWK-1000 10cm Recoilless Rifle: Enlarged PWK-600, would have been available in '47
RTO w/ 15cm Nebelwerfer Rocket: Would have been available in '47
SdKfz 350/3: Command Variant
SdKfz 350/7: 80mm Mortar Carrier
SdKfz 350/10: Platoon Leader Variant with 37mm (or 20mm, 30mm, 50mm)
SdKfz 351/3: Communication Vehicle
SdKfz 351/6: Command Vehicle
SdKfz 351/7: Combat Engineer Vehicle
SdKfz 351/8: Combat Ambulance
SdKfz 351/10: Platoon Leader Vehicle with 37mm (or 20mm, 30mm, 50mm)
SdKfz 351/16: Flamethrower Variant
SdKfz 351/17: Flak Variant armed with 1x 30mm (or 2x 30mm, or 50mm)
SdKfz 351/18: Artillery AOP
SdKfz 351/20: Uhu IR Equipment
SdKfz 351/21: Flak Variant armed with 3x 20mm (or 3x 30mm)
SdKfz 351 w/ X-7: 351 with X-7 ATGM
SdKfz 351 w/ 15cm Nebelwerfer rocket.
SdKfz 352: Ammo carrier version of the SdKfz 350
SdKfz 353: Armored FO variant of the SdKfz 350
Springer: Medium remote control demolition vehicle
Sturmpanzer IV Late (Group 4): Totally revised superstructure that included MG ball mount
Waffentrager 38d 105mm: Replacement for the Wespe; mounts a 105mm howitzer
Individual Late WWII Engineers
Individual X-7 ATGM teams
Hungary
Turan III: Turan II armed with a long barrel 75L43 gun in a new turret
Zriyni 44M: Assault gun based on Turan; armed with a 75L43
Italy
Semovente M42 DA105/25: Served the Italians and Germans on the Eastern and Italian Fronts.
Semovente M43 DA75/46: Served with the German Army in Italy
Semovente M44 DA149/40: Improved Semovente with a 149mm gun
Japan
Type 4 Chi-To Heavy Tank: Armed with long barrel 75mm gun. Not completed before the end of the war.
Type 4 150mm Howitzer: Used throughout the Pacific and China. Wide spread used by the Chinese Army.
Soviet Union
ASU-57: Airborne 57mm Assault Gun; Originally available in 1951, but production would have been sped up if WWII would have continued.
BM-24: 12x 240mm rockets on a tractor chassis
BM-25: 6x 250mm rockets on a tractor chassis
BM-31-12(US6): Studebaker US6 6x6 with 12 300mm rockets
BTR-10: APC version of the BA-10 & BA-32.
D-1 (M-1943) 152mm Field Howitzer: Served from late 1930s to at least 1990s with some African and Middle East customers.
JS-4: It did not make it to the front in time to see service. Great what if & counter to the E-100
JS-7: Armed with a 130mm naval gun. Built in 1946, development cancelled due to the end of WWII. Stabilized gun, IR sights, and autoloader.
La-7 Fin: The last of the LaGG/La series fighters; Only Soviet aircraft to shoot down a ME-262
La-9 Fritz: Post WWII fighter used extensively by North Korea during the Korean War
La-11 Fang: Post WWII fighter used extensively by North Korea during the Korean War
MiG-9 Fargo: Soviet Union’s first jet fighter; Entered service in 1946.
MiG-13: Motorjet fighter that first entered service in 1945; developed to counter the Me-262.
MiG-15 Fagot – Korean War Fighter; Entered service in 1947.
MiG-17 Fresco – Vietnam War Fighter; Entered service in 1950.
Oka: 420mm mortar mounted on a JS series chassis
OT-34/85: Flamethrower version of the T-34/85
S-23 180mm Gun: Developed from a naval gun. Entered service in 1950. If WWII went long, it would have been available in 1947.
SU-76B: SU-76M with a fully enclosed crew compartment
T-44A: Supposed to be the T-34/85 replacement; over 2,000 built, predecessor of the T-54/T-55 series; Enter service in November 1944
T-44/100: Final production version armed with a 100mm gun. Led to the T-54/55 series.
T-54: First tank in the T-54/55 series
T-80 Light Tank: Replace the T-70
Yak-9D: Long Range version of the Yak-9
Yak-15: One of the first Soviet Union jet fighter; Entered service in 1946.
ZSU-37: Based on the T-60 chassis, armed with a single 37mm AAG
Individual WWII Engineers
Decals WWII Soviet Slogan Markings
United Kingdom
3.45" Recoilless Rifle: Tripod mounted anti-tank weapon. Would have been available in 1947.
3.7" Recoilless Rifle: Enlarged version of the 3.45" recoilless rifle. Would have had light wheels to help with transport.
6 Pounder Anti-Aircraft Gun: 57mm gun in development at the end of WWII.
7.2" Recoilless Gun: Cancelled due to the end of the WWII.
32 Pounder Anti-Tank Gun: Cancelled due to the end of WWII. Would have been available if the war lasted to '47
55 Pounder Anti-Tank Gun: Massive anti-tank gun in development at the end of WWII. Would have been available in '47. SP and towed variants.
95mm Recoilless Gun: Adopted too late to serve in WWII.
Avenger: Tank Destroyer mounting a 17-Pounder on a Cromwell chassis
BL 7.2" Howitzer Mark 6: 183mm Howitzer used during the later portion of WWII.
Black Prince: Widen Churchill with 17-Pounder. Too late for combat in Europe.
Boarhound (T-18) – 8x8 Armored Car armed with a 37mm gun. 50 fielded with the British Army
Boarhound (T-18E2) – 8x8 Armored Car armed with a 57mm gun. Great what if.
Caernavon Mk1: Conquerer chassis with a Centurion Mk2 17pdr turret. Intended as an interim tank until the Conquerer turret is ready for service.
Caernavon Mk2: Caernavon Mk1 with the Centurion Mk3 20pdr turret.
Centurion Mk2: Mk1 with a cast turret
Centurion Mk4: Close support version with a 95mm howitzer
Charioteer: Cromwell with new turret & 20-Pounder gun, equipped TD units in BOAR immediately after WWII.
Churchill ARK Mk1: AVLB version of the Churchill
Churchill Crocodile: Flame thrower version of the Churchill
Churchill Kangaroo: APC version of the Churchill, used right after WWII, would have been available if WWII went to '47
Churchill Accessory Pack: Mine Plough, Bobbin Fascine, Bobbin Carpet, & Crocodile Trailer
Conqueror Mk1 / Mk2: British first truly heavy tank
Conqueror ARV: ARV version of the Conqueror
Conway FV4004: Interim heavy tank built on the Centurion tank chassis in case the Conqueror heavy tank did not performed as ordered. Armed with the US L1A1 120mm gun. Designed to counter the JS-3.
Coventry Mk1: Replacement for Humber and Daimler armored cars. Armed with a 2 pdr
Coventry Mk2: 75mm Howitzer version of the Mk1
Cromwell Kangaroo: If the war would have lasted to '47, retired Cromwell would have been coverted to APCs
Deerhound (T-17) – 6x6 version of the Staghound; Unarmed version used by US MPs.
Ferret: Post WWII armor car. Widely exported.
FV3801: Gun Prime Mover based on the Centurion chassis.
FV3802: 25pdr SPG mounted on a Centurion chassis. One building shortly after WWII. Great 1947 what if.
FV3802: Armored command post vehicle based on the Centurion chassis.
FV3804: Ammunition carrier based on the Centurion chassis.
FV3805: 5.5in SPH mounted on a Centurion chassis. Great 1947 what if. Gun mounted in a rear facing enclosed superstructure.
FV3806: 7.2in SPG mounted on a Centurion chassis. Another 1947 what if.
FV3807: 120mm SPATG mounted on a Centurion chassis. Great 1947 what if tank destroyer.
FV3808: Medium SPG mounted on a Centurion chassis.
FV3809: 155mm SPATG mounted on a Centruion chassis. Another great 1947 what if.
FV4005 Mk1: Limited transverse open turret with a 180mm gun mounted on a Centurion chassis. Great 1947 what if. Developed after the FV4004 Conway was cancelled.
FV4005 Mk2: Enclosed turret with a 183mm gun mounted on a Centurion chassis. Great 1947 what if.
Meteor: First jet fighter used by the Allies.
Priest Kangaroo: APC version of the Priest
Tortoise A-39 - 6 made before the end of the war, armed with a 32-Pounder
Vampire: Second jet fighter commission by the RAF.
Venom: Fighter bomber version of the Vampire.
Individual WWII Engineers
United States
B-26F Marauder – Improved wing design over earlier versions.
C-47 Skytrain/Dakota: Transport Aircraft
C-82 Packet: Entered service in 1944. Lead to the C-119B Boxcar.
C-119B Boxcar: Entered service in 1947.
F-82 Twin Mustang: First USAF aircraft used in the Korean War
F-94 Starfire: The USAF first all weather fighter; Available in 1950, would have been available earlier if WWII would have continued.
F2H Banshee: Entered service with the USN in 1947.
F4U-1D Corsair – F4U-1C with .50 cal MG and Malcolm hood.
F8F-1 Bearcat: Good addition for the ’47 line. Serve in Korea and in Vietnam with the French and South Vietnamese.
F9F-1 Panther: Entered service with the USN 1947.
F9F-6 Cougar: Entered service with the USN 1949; Good chance it would be available earlier if WWII would have lasted longer.
FH Phantom: Entered service with the USN in 1947.
FJ-1 Fury: Lead to the F-86. USN first jet fighter, entered service in 1947.
FJ-2 Fury: Based on the F-86.
LVTC-5: Command version of the AMTRAC
LVTH-6A1: AMTRAC with 105mm howitzer; 210 built
LVTR-1: Recovery version of the LVTP-5; 65 built
M-1 Super Heavy Anti-Aircraft Gun: 120mm gun that served during WWII and Korea War.
M-1 240mm Howitzer: (limber & deployed with prime movers) Both wheel & tracked versions
M-3A2: Universal halftrack to replace both M-2 and M-3 halftrack
M-4A1E8(76): Also used by France and Israel
M-4A3E8(90): Sherman armed with a 90mm cannon in a new turret. Great '47 what if
M-4A3E8(105): Easy Eight mounting a 105mm howitzer.
M-7B1: Priest on M-4 Sherman chassis
M-18(90): Hellcat with the turret of the M-36
M-19 GMC: SP twin 40mm AAG mounted on a M-24 chassis
M-20 75mm Recoilless Rifle: Used by Airborne troops at the end of WWII. Would probably been the standard infantry anti-tank weapon if the war lasted into 1947.
M-21 MMC: Replaced the M-4 MMC (81mm Mortar Carrier on a M-3 Halftrack chassis)
M-22 Locust: British used them during the Rhine Crossings; Egypt used them in the 1948 Arab Israeli War
M-26 90mm Anti-Tank Gun ( T-8 ): Issued to airborne division. Replaced in the 1950s.
M-26A1 Pershing: Pershing with improved 90mm gun
M-32 ARV
M-35 Tractor: Converted from M-10A1 Tank Destroyer; used as a prime move for 240mm howitzer
M-36A2 Jackson with overhead protection
M-36B2 Jackson with overhead protection
M-37 SPH: 105mm SPH based on the M-24 and intended to replace the M-7. Fielded too late to serve in WWII, but did served in Korea. Would have been available for '47.
M-38 Wolfhound (T-28): Planned replacement for the M-8 armored car, but WWII ended before it could be field. Mounts a 37mm gun.
M-38 Wolfhound: Up gun version of the M-38 Wolfhound with the turret from the M-24 Chaffee.
M-41 Gorilla SPH: 155mm SPH based on the M-24. Fielded too late to serve in WWII, but did served in Korea. Would have been available for '47.
M-43 8†SPH: M-40 chassis and structure mounting a 8†howitzer in lieu of the 155mm gun; 48 built.
M-44: Fully enclosed APC based on the M-18 chassis. Handful built by the end of the war.
M-45 Pershing: Armed with 105mm howitzer instead of 90mm, used heavily in the Korean War
M-46 Patton: Improved variant of the M-26 and saw heavy use in Korea
M-46 Patton with Night Vision System
M-51 ARV: USMC Heavy ARV widely used in Vietnam. Based on the M-103 chassis.
M-51 Skysweeper: 75mm radar guided anti-aircraft gun; SP version would have been available in '47.
M-59 APC: Lower cost alternative to the M-75
M-65 Atomic Annie: Cold War Atomic Cannon
M-75 APC: Pre-M113
M-103: The US only true heavy tank. Armed with a 120mm Rifle Gun. Used in Korea.
P-47M Thunderbolt: “Sprint†version of the P-47. Used at the end of the war against the Japanese mainland
P-47N Thunderbolt: The last version of the P-47.
P-51D/K Mustang: Definitive version of the Mustang with 6x .50 cal; could be armed with 10 rockets
P-51H Mustang: Final production type of the Mustang; 555 were ready for the plan invasion of Japan
P-80 Shooting Star (F-80): USAAF first jet fighter.
P-84 Thunderjet (F-84): Entered service in 1947
T-4 155mm Recoilless Howitzer: Used the standard 155mm artillery shell. Great what if.
T-8 105mm Anti-Tank Gun: Cancelled at the end of the WWII. Incredible performance. Great what if.
T-13 90mm Anti-Tank Gun: Towed version of the gun mounted on the M-36 Jackson
T-15 57mm Recoilless Rifle: Used standard 57mm ATG ammo.
T-16: Similar to the M-41, but armed with a 4.5†howitzer
T-18 76mm Anti-Tank Gun: Post-war development of the M-5 ATG. Vastly improved penetration.
T-19 105mm Recoilless Rifle: Would have been available for '47 combat.
T-27 Heavy Armored Car: 8x8 armored car; lost out to the T-28 (M-38); armed with a 37mm gun
T-29 Heavy Tank: Based on a lengthen Pershing chassis. Armed with a 105mm gun.
T-30 Heavy Tank: Based on a T-29. Armed with a 155mm gun.
T-30 Ammo Carrier: Based on the M-40; cancelled to make more M-40 GMC
T-31 Ammo Carrier: Based on the M-26; intended to support the T-92 and T-93
T-32 4.5" Rocket Launcher: 32 mounted laterally on the rear of a 2-½ ton truck. 75 issued in November 1944
T-34 Heavy Tank: Based on the T-29. Armed with a 120mm gun. Led to the M-103 series.
T-38 4.2†Mortar Carrier: Based on the M-37, but armed with 4.2†mortar
T-54 90mm Anti-Tank Gun: Longer barrel version of the T-13. Almost twice the penetration capability.
T-66 4.5" Rocket Launcher: 24 tubes mounted on a two-wheel carriage. Used in Czechoslovia.
T-77 GMC: Armed with 6x .50 cal in an enclosed turret
T-85 GMC: Armed with 4x 20mm cannons in an enclosed turret
T-92 HMC: SP 240mm howitzer based on the M-26.
T-93 GMC: SP 8†(203mm) gun based on the M-26.
T-94 250mm Mortar Carrier: Built on the M-40 chassis and superstructure; 1 completed in 1946.
T-95 Assault Tank: Armed with 105mm gun, American answer to the British Tortoise. Two made. Also called T-28.
T-96 155mm SPM: Breech loading 155mm self-propelled mortar
Individual WWII Marine Infantry
Individual WWII Marine Heavy Weapons
Individual WWII Engineers
Last edited by Harlan on Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am, edited 15 times in total.
I do have a question though. You listed the M8 Light Tank for US forces, my understanding was that this was/is a fairly new system and wouldn'e fall into the '47 range. Are we thinking of two different systems?
I know I would be a buyer for the ARL-44 and M36B2. Add some of the other vendor's M4A1 76mm (w) HVSS's (M4A1E8s) and a few of GHQ's existing Panthers, and you have a very robust French post-war armored force for 1947 "Berlin Crisis Goes HOT" scenarios.
To match this I would also be first in line for JS-4s, JS-7s (Oh MY what a beast!), T-44/85s or /100s, and T-54s. Probably some SU-37s too. Would like to see a Yak-11 jet fighter to go along with the La-7, La-9 and La-11s, though (btw - not LaGG, just La. Lavotchkin's partners abandoned him at the design bureau after the scandals of the LaGG-3).
For the US I would be interested in Super Pershings, M45s and M46s (M46 was no longer a Pershing, but the first of several tanks to be called a Patton), and several of the T-model heavies. Also M59 and M75 APCs.
Yep. Quite a rich selection of treats on the list, even for those who don't quite take to the W47 alternate timeline.
-Mark 1 Difficile est, saturam non scribere. "It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Schwerepunkt wrote:Soviets get T44 amongst others while British get Centurion I and Tortoise. US gets T28 and SuperPersing. These are just the beginning. I would also like to see Luftwaffe '46 aircraft (specifically tactical bombers such as the JU187,287) for inclusion.
Not everyone is pleased with this list.
As has been mentioned Harlan's list is beyond what GHQ could reasonably produce, but I would add some of my favorites as well as change some of the choices.
I had forgotten to include the Kanone 4 24 cm and the similar concept M65 in my want list. Thank you, Harlan, for including these.
The Tortoise, SdKfz 351 engineer vehicle, and T-44/100 are already scheduled for production in the coming year. These can be removed from the wish list. Also, the GW Tiger fur 21 cm Haubitze is listed, but the GW Tiger fur 17 cm Kanone is scheduled for production. A simple replacement of the barrel (from the already-available towed mount) produces the desired model.
For the SdKfz 351 types with 3,7cm guns - this gun was totally outdated by 1947. I would think that the corresponding types would mount one of the guided anti-tank missiles instead.
For everything based on the medium tank M4, I would substitued the T20/T23 chassis. These were proposed replacements for the M4, but were abandoned because of some transmission problems and the desire to maximize production of the good-enough M4. These looked a lot like a cross between the M18 Hellcat and the M26 Pershing chassis, (about the same overall size of the M4 but lower and better-sloped armor with torsion-bar suspension). By 1947, there would have been time to recognize that the M4 was obsolete and correct the original deficiencies in the T20/T23.
The A-20 was already being replaced by the A-26 at the end of the historical WWII. One of the A-26 versions (or perhaps the Beech XA-38 Grizzly) would be much more appropriate to WM'47 than the A-20G.
I would have expected that by 1947 the C-47 (designed initially as a purely commercial aircraft) would be in the process of being replaced by the purpose-designed Fairchild C-82 packet or even the up-powered C-119 Flying Boxcar. I would really like to see a 1/285 scale C-47 for the WWII line, but it was out-dated by 1947.
The late-model P-47 and P-51 fighters (along with the F8F Bearcat) would have still been around in 1947, but in the process of being replaced by P/F-80, P/F-84, F9F, FH, and FJ types. Also, you did not list any of the British aircraft being developed at the time, such as the Gloster Meteor and the de Havilland Vampire.
In the latter part of historic WWII, the US enjoyed an advantage in self-propelled artillery over the German forces. As the Germans developed the Grille and Waffentrager series to overcome this problem, the US introduced new SP designs to maintain their advantage. I would like to see the following:
Based on the M24 chassis: T-16 GMC - similar to the M-41 155 mm howitzer but with a 4.5" gun (replacing the British shell with a superior US design), T-38 MMC - 4.2" mortar on a chassis similr to the M-37, T-96 MMC - a breach-loading 155 mm mortar on a chassis similar to the M-41, T-77 GMC - six 0.5" machine guns on an enclosed turret, T-85 GMC - four 20 mm guns on a turret.
Based on the M26 chassis: T92 HMC and T93 GMC - 240 mm howitzer and 8" gun mounts, T31 - the unarmed version of the same chassis for ammunition supply.
It is not accurate to describe the T95 (AKA T28) as the US version of the Tortoise. Although designed to a similar concept (hull-mounted large-caliber gun with very heavy armor), the T95 was a totally different design.
Donald M. Scheef wrote:
For everything based on the medium tank M4, I would substitued the T20/T23 chassis. These were proposed replacements for the M4, but were abandoned because of some transmission problems and the desire to maximize production of the good-enough M4. These looked a lot like a cross between the M18 Hellcat and the M26 Pershing chassis, (about the same overall size of the M4 but lower and better-sloped armor with torsion-bar suspension). By 1947, there would have been time to recognize that the M4 was obsolete and correct the original deficiencies in the T20/T23.
Don:
IIRC most versions of the T20 and T23 were on HVSS suspension. I think only one version of the T23 had torsion bars. And those "transmission problems" revolved largely around going down a developmental dead-end -- a diesel-electric propulsion system. That was not going to be fixed.
In my view a T20 or T23 would be best suited to a "what-if?" in 1944. Both were efforts undertaken as soon as the M4 was standardized for production, and were intended to replace the M4 during the war (the M4 was seen as an expedient design, just to get a 75mm gun into a turret and into the troops' hands -- it was not seen as a long-term solution). They mounted 75mm or 76mm guns. The T20, using the same 75mm gun as the Sherman, had an auto-loader allowing a very high rate of fire. The T23 used the new 76mm guns in the turret that was later adopted to mount on the Sherman 76s. In both cases they would hold no real advantage over an M4A3 76mm (w) HVSS on a 1947 battlefield.
By the time you settle on a conventional (working) engine and transmission, torsion bar suspension, and a 90mm gun, you have a T25. Now THAT might make an interesting "what-if?" vehicle, but again maybe for 1944 or 1945. It was the same basic design as its heavier sibling, with a 3-inch frontal armor basis rather than the 4-inch basis of the otherwise identical T26. Some have suggested that it might have gotten into production sooner than the T26, as the lower weight might have led to fewer power-train problems (developmentally and in the field). So an interesting what-if for an Ardenne scenario, but I don't see it as offering any better solution in 1947.
-Mark 1 Difficile est, saturam non scribere. "It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Thank you for your suggestions, I have added most of them to my list and deleted a couple of vehicles that you suggested.
Strictly conjecture on my part, I believe that the platoon and company command versions of the 351 series would have had an auto-cannon rather than a missile. A 30mm or 50mm gun variant would have given the commander a more versatile weapon; something capable of engaging infantry, soft skin vehicles, light armed vehicles, fighting positions, and maybe even aircrafts. I believe an X-7 armed 351 would have been the main weapon system for the AT section of Panzer Grenadier Companies and Battalions.
Mk 1,
I agree with your comments on the shortcomings of the T20/T23 transmission. The "fix" I had in mind was going to a diesel with a more conventional transmission. My real objective was to get a vehicle in the M4 weight range with a totally different look to the chassis from the M4 series. Any tactical benefit would come from the lower hull (purpose-built flat diesel engine), better-sloped armor, and provision of an even better gun in the 75mm range (perhaps an Americanized version of the British 17pdr).
Harlan,
Yes, an automatic 30mm sounds like a very attractive proposition. An auto 50mm sounds too heavy, even with a low-angle mount (no AA capability). I'll go along with you on this. As you say, the X-7 would be reserved for dedicated anti-tank vehicles.
I disagree with including F-94 Starfire (other than the gun-armed A and B models), F9F-6 Cougar, and FJ-2 in a 1947 scenario. These are all definitely 1950 aircraft. The first F-94 prototype first flew in 1949, the first swept-wing F9F and the first swept-wing FJ in 1951. For 1947, stick with the P/F-80 (predecessor of the F-94), and the straight-wing F9F Panther and FJ-1 Fury.
(btw, the F-94 was not the USAF’s first night fighter. In addition to some 1930-era experiments and Beaufighters & Mosquitos borrowed from the British, I would mention the P-38M (admittedly, an extemporaneous conversion), P-70 (fighter version of the A-20), and P-61 Black Widow. The F-94 was the USAF’s first jet-powered night fighter in service, but the prototypes of the F-87 and F-89 had flown earlier than the first prototype F-94 and production versions of the Navy’s F3D Skynight were delivered several months before the first production F-94.)
For similar reasons, I would not include the British de Havilland Venom. On the other hand, I would add some British aircraft. The piston-engined types are equivalent to the late-model P-51 and P-47 types. The jet-powered types are equivalent to the F-80 and F-84:
de Havilland Hornet (long-range & night fighter developed from the Mosquito) [small production run post-war]
Hawker Tempest I (Sabre in-line engine with wing-root radiators) [prototypes only]
Hawker Tempest II (Centaurus radial engine) [already in WWII list]
Hawker Tempest V and VI (Sabre, radiators under nose) [already in WWII list]
Hawker Fury (Sabre engine with wing-root radiators) [prototypes only]
Hawker Fury (Centaurus engine) [extensive use in Korea as Sea Fury]
Hawker P1040 (initially, fighter/bomber design: Fury wings with new jet-powered fuselage- eventually became carrier-based Sea Hawk with all-new wings) [service entry delayed by function change but could have been ready in 1947]
Martin-Baker M.B.5 (one of the most advanced piston-engine aircraft) [prototype only]
Supermarine Spiteful (ultimate development of the Spitfire concept with laminar-flow wings) [small number built late in WWII)
Supermarine Attacker (Spiteful wings on a new jet-powered fuselage) [used as carrier attack, but design started as land-based fighter/bomber]
Don S.
Last edited by Donald M. Scheef on Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am actually hoping that GHQ will give you both barrel in the pack and let you build either the GW Tiger fur 21 cm Haubitze or GW Tiger fur 17 cm Kanone. I would like to same thing with the Waffentrager 38d. A pack of vehicles and a selection of weapons platform to choose from: 88mm gun, 105mm howitzer, 2x 50mm gun etc.
If a Sherman wasn't tall enough already...Just look at the increase in height that 90mm turret provides.
