PC based rulesets and game calculations

suisse6 · Post by **suisse6** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:19 am

I generally purchase miniatures for collecting and modeling purposes. The ability to have hundreds of models in a tacklebox is far superior to 6-7 1/35th scale models in a display cabinet especially given GHQ's level of detail. I don't game, I really have no interest in it. I've looked into it but it is far easier to play any one of a number of strategy PC games that are based upon the same rubric, like Panzer General and takes 30-50% of the time. That said, there is something about having real life miniatures involved. Now for those of us who were raised in the PC era, no offense to anyone, my thought was this: a PC based game played on the table top. I have broached the subject with GHQ and am merely feeling out the possible interest. I know that if I had a map editor where I could recreate in a couple of minutes the terrain I have on the table and then it had the database for all the armor/penetration/etc., I would be interested in playing. All you would do is roll your dice, move your piece and input the movement on the map which would then instantly calculate all the effects. No waiting to figure out whether the armor on a M13/39 can withstand a 37mm AT round, the PC would do all that. All you'd have to have is, a laptop and some dice. Thoughts? I know that it is going to sound like sacrilege to some of the hard core traditionalists, but is there any interest in that? I know it would speed up the games and make them simpler without dumbing down the inputs so to speak.

Chicken Zombies · Post by **Chicken Zombies** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:56 am

I always thought the data found in a rule set like Tank Charts would lend itself well to a computer assisted wargame. Could handle FOG, visibility and hidden units as well

SSgtBuck · Post by **SSgtBuck** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:06 am

I think the guys on the WRG Yahoo! group have come up with something like that for the WRG rules. I only briefly looked at it but it seemed like a pretty good idea. Have as yet to try anything like that so I can't say how well it works. I would say that by and large wargames rules are number crunching so I would think that it would readily lend itself to being computer based.

av8rmongo · Post by **av8rmongo** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:08 am

I'll speak only for myself (but I will hhazard a guess at what motivates many players) the reason to wargame is for human interaction. Too much PC and you might as well just play PC/Online games. One of the challenges I think if you're allowing the PC to "instantly calculate all the effects" is how to code for subtlties like overwatch/opportunity fire. With a pure PC game its easy the AI can handle it all because it knows both side of the equation. How you handle the "I want to shoot at you as you move past my position", which one of many things that paper rules have difficulty with (in terms of simulating the fluidity of warfare - the I go - U go problem) will determine how useful it is in aiding a tabletop miniatures game.

What I have done for Harpoon, which anyone who has played Harpoon knows how complicated it can be, is automated the calcultaions required for attacks, spotting etc. That may be more in line with what you are talking about doing, I'm not sure. I used to GM a lot of Harpoon games and I wanted the play to move faster so I made an exel spreadsheet (maybe not the most elegent solution) that uses all the rules, modifiers etc and provides the chance to hit or whatever automatically. By building it myself I have become intimately familiar with the rules and players can now focus more on maneuvers and tactics instead of flipping through a rule book to find the modifier to the hit number etc. Its a tool that works very well for a GM to speed up "administrivia" things but the players are still every bit in control of their units.

Something like that could work very well for micro armor. Given weapon and range and target/target facing what is the penetration etc. My two cents.

Paul

HKurban · Post by **HKurban** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:13 pm

I'd just like to point out first that I saw a website somewhere where someone had translated a number of avalon hill games into a computer assisted version much like what you are talking about, where a virtual representation of the board is used and calculations are run based on computations programed to the game's rules and statistics.

I have also thought into exploring into this idea with the wargame I am currently working on. I see av8r's point on the human interaction but the more humans have to calculate statistics, the longer each turn takes. As a result, many games sacrifice detail for faster gameplay. What I am looking to do with computers is take many details and statistics that could be considered too complicated for human's to work with by hand and bring them onto the computer to keep detail and gameplay. What I wish to do does not extend far beyond word documents and spread sheet calculations. Basically the computer does the record keeping and number crunching and thats about it.

However, I do plan to use the computer in a number of other unorthadox ways. First, I've been using the computer to flesh out the backstory of my game to for the players, such as this photoshopping of a BBC news article designed as sort of a prologue to the current mission, seen here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/ ... 1SEP13.gif

I also am going to experiment with having a soundtrack for my game to add a bit more tension to the game. I'll start with basic atmospheric stuff for now, taking tracks from games like World In Conflict and other games and movies that can help portray a modern conflict in Eastern Europe. Eventually I might aim to make the music more dynamic, switching tracks or playlists to match the tone of the game.

voltigeur · Post by **voltigeur** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:59 pm

I've been writing a set of 1:1 rules for 2 years now and finally at the play testing stage. I am toying with the idea of a computer aided version of this game system. I have been working with a friend that is working on his own 5:1 rules.

We have discussed a computer aided version and the first issue we are discussing is how the computer can actually speed up play. I have been involved in a couple of previous projects and played a Napoleonicâ€™s game that was computer moderated.

The issue is not just programming the charts and writing calculators. That is the easy part! Most computer aided games fail because they don't speed play! Truth is when you program shots into the computer in most systems you have to go through the routine each and every time. In the "** CENSORED **" game you can figure your die roll and roll for every shot that that percentage applies to.

I played a computer aided Napoleonic game that was much slower and less detailed than Valmy to Waterloo. (Sorry the computer aided game was given a title)
I have also found talking with gamers that not rolling their own dice may be a deal breaker for many people.
As far as playing on the computer Steel Panthers is by far the best game I have played on computer. It is literally like playing miniatures on the computer. Graphics are not the flashiest but it is the best game system if you like miniature play. And all of your number are there, so you know how the computer is calculating everything.

voltigeur · Post by **voltigeur** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:05 pm

OK why did the system Censor the word "a n a l o g"?

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:38 pm

As Yogi Berra said "It's deja vu all over again."

My WWII Panzer War armor miniatures rules has been made into a computer game (Panzer Command) by Matrix Games.
It uses the same basic charts as the miniatures games and in many cases with increased detail.
While the game is turn based it is wego and plays like real time so you couldn't use it as a play aid to your mini game.

Right now they are working on a map maker creating 3D maps using Google Earth so you can play a battle on the exact terrain form the real battle was on. When that comes out you might be able to use that map (has a grid) to design your own miniatures terrain or mold your sand table.

As for calculations, I wrote computer programs to crunch the ballistics of each rifle and cannon and create tables with that data. The tables are used by the game. Since ballistics doesn't change from game to game and having to do it over in over in the game would be too much overhead it is done outside the program.

Donald M. Scheef · Post by **Donald M. Scheef** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:28 am

For the same reason that they censor the name of the island "Guadalc*n*l." Similar to the reason that you can't inter the name of the British County-class cruisers Wess*x, Suss*x, etc. and the US aircraft carrier Ess*x.

The automatic censoring program is highly sensitive to any sequence of letters that have any off-color conotation and has absolutely no allowance for context.

Don S.

suisse6 · Post by **suisse6** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:58 am

Excellent a-n-a-lysis Don

Gotta love it.

Thomaso827 · Post by **Thomaso827** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:58 am

I've seen some game assist programs out for naval games, just type in range and angle and it takes care of firing. There was a Napoleonic game assist that was in test way back at Historicon 93, but the computer kept crashing, and after about 30 or 45 minutes of the GM rebooting and restarting the game, he gave up. I havent seen many of these things go mainstream yet, but I think with the smaller "netbook" computers available, more people would be willing to try them. Whole different story from the old days with large laptops or having to have your big desktop sitting next to the game table.

Tom Oxley

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:58 am

One thing that I have against computer as sisted games is that you can't leave the computer unattended at conventions. And that is where you meet new players.

HKurban · Post by **HKurban** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:07 am

Thats what the buddy system is for

VonTed · Post by **VonTed** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:43 pm

There is always the VASSAL engine thingy (I think this what was referred to earlier).
........................................................

The VASSAL Game Engine

VASSAL is a game engine for building and playing online adaptations of board games and card games. It allows users to play in real time over a live Internet connection (in addition to playing by email). It runs on all platforms, and is free for personal use.

I didn't link because I wasn't sure about the rules on this...