WWI Naval Weapons: Relative Ranges & Other Technical Det

[Timothy OConnor]

Hello!

Question for WWI naval warfare experts here. What were the relative effective ranges for various weapons, specifically destroyer-launched torpedoes and the various guns up to those carried by battleships?

I'm re-reading "Castles of Steel" and while it's a very good read it tends to gloss over the technical details of combat. It quotes ships as being a given distance apart but never explicitly indicates why the range is relevant (eg 8,000 yards, 16,000 yards, etc.).

Any recommendations for books covering the technical aspects of WWI naval combat?

Thanks!

Tim

[piersyf]

That's a big question, dude. Rather than a book a great website to start from is http://www.navweaps.com/... from there you can not only get info on the guns but also some info on the fire direction systems that impact on accuracy. Also a whole section on torpedoes divided by period and country.

Just to get you started, in 1914 the ideal range for a torpedo attack from destroyers was 2000 yards, yet at Jutland the Petard hit the Seydlitz at around 6000 yards, and the Onslow made a failed torpedo attack at 8000 yards, so it would seem the limitation is accuracy not range.

[TAMMY]

On the technical aspects of WWI battleships warfare I suggest an old book (1975) bi Peter Padfield "The battleship era" - Pan Books. I don't knopw if it still around but ii gives all the necessary info on tactics and their reasons.

A much more specific text is "Naval firepower - Battleship guns and gunnery in the dreadmought era" by Norman Friedman, Seaforth publishing 2008. It may be a bit too technical for your scope but is a really complete history of the development of fire control with all the details yopu may wish.

For the torpedoes I suggest "The devil device" by Edwin Gray, Naval Institute Press 2004

[Timothy OConnor]

Thanks for the info! Great website piersyf!

I suppose one lower level question might be: given typical torpedo speed and endurance during WWI, did a destroyer's torp out-range the main guns on a BB? CA? ...or did the main batteries have the reach to kill the DD before it could reach effective torp range?

[piersyf]

Gunnery ranges were generally in to 10,000 to 15,000 yard range for engagements. The destroyer relied on speed and small size to get close enough to shoot. This fit the mentality of being like a light cavalry charge into the teeth of enemy artillery (Charge of the Light Brigade, literally). You should also remember that gunnery at range was very difficult at the time, even against other capital ships. They expected (and trained) to fight ships in battle line where once the range was established it would be relatively easy to adjust your fall of shot to match the target's movement. The lines were also kinda meant to move something like parallel to each other to use the full broadside. The average naval gunner wasn't taught to shoot at a target charging straight at them. Defence against the destroyers were the quick firers, smaller calibre weapons that had a rate of fire quick enough to engage the on rushing destroyer, but only had a range of about 4,000 o 5,000 yards. Check the website again and look at the smaller calibre weapons carried by WW1 capital ships and you'll get the idea. They weren't there as AA guns!

P

[Timothy OConnor]

Great insights, thanks piersyf!

The driver behind my question would be heresy to the historical naval gamers here but you've answered my question perfectly!

I'm primarily a historical gamer but with two little boys who enjoy history and sci-fi I find myself often pulled into SF gaming. I've always enjoyed pre-WWII naval history to WWII+ history. I guess it's the effect aircraft and missiles have on naval tactics. WWI was that last time fleets routinely pounded away against each other in full view of one another.

I know that happened in WWII but those seem to be mostly night actions. In WWI there were a number of interesting small scale actions in addition to the Big Show, Jutland.

So our home grown space battle rules are based on WWI naval combat. Recently I was tweaking them but since they're based only on a broad and shallow knowledge of WWI naval combat I wanted to drill a little deeper and review the weapon relationships. My knowledge is based purely on anecdotes from naval histories rather than technical data, so this is very helpful!

[battlewagon]

I'm a little late to the conversation, but I found another good reference in my library that goes into detail on the sort of information you are looking for. The book is: JUTLAND An A*n*a*l*y*s*i*s Of The Fighting by John Campbell published by Conway Maritime Press
(Sorry about the creative spelling...filters...aaarrrgggghhh!)

It goes into great detail about who fired at whom, what range, what angle and what damage was caused. It includes many diagrams of the trajectory of shell hits and the damage they caused.

I hope this helps.

[TAMMY]

A very interesting site on WWI Maritime war:

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm

It is mostly a collection of articles on various subjects from weapon to equipemnt amd tactics

[Timothy OConnor]

Wow! When it rains it pours! Great stuff, thank you!

I know the project sounds odd but if you think of it as simple WWI miniatures rules with space ship models for little boys it makes sense.

This info has inspired me to consider collecting GHQ WWI ships now. I'm generally not into large scale fleet actions, regardless of period. So no interest in gaming Jutland. But actions such as the Battle of the Falklands could be fun.

[ed*b]

For detail on small ship actions in WW1, I've found the following two books very good:

The Battle of Heligoland Bight by Eric Osborne and
The Battle of the Otranto Straits by Paul Halpern

Both are available at good prices from Amazon.

One major factor in WW1 naval battles that wouldn't apply to what you are doing is visibility. The combination of fog, funnel smoke and haze often had a major impact on visibility and the ability to hit the target, not to mention twilight and night combat.

Another factor that you may or may not want to simulate is the range of fire control systems. WW1 saw perhaps the widest range of system in use compared to other periods, from simple coincidence or stereoscopic short base rangefinders through much larger rangefinders connected to ** CENSORED ** computers to calculate range and bearing offsets. By WW2, most navies had fairly equivalent rangefinder and computer systems, at least until radar directed gunfire became common.

[Timothy OConnor]

Found this interesting bit in a book entitled "Fleet Tactics".

EXTREME RANGE: 8,000-10,000m
Heavy caliber guns within range

LONG RANGE: 5,000-8,000m
Heavy and medium-caliber guns effective, the latter against personnel and unarmored parts

MEDIUM RANGE: 3,000-5,000m
Medium guns worth a "special value" (ie higher ROF becomes more telling than heavier gun's larger shell)

CLOSE RANGE: 2,000-3,000m
Torpedoes a hazard depending upon relative ship positions

Another interesting bit: 1 knot is roughly 30.9m per minute. So a destroyer moving at 27 knots can close from extreme heavy gun range to torp range in roughly 10 minutes.

[TAMMY]

It was not a question of time to cover a distance.

The heavy guns were simply unable to track a fast moving target because their aiming (firing direction) system was too slow to follow it, both in range and angle.

The medium guns may do it or not, depending on their mount.

The standard defence against torpedo boats were the quick firing light guns (around 57mm) which were freely aimed by shoulder with a counterweight.

To confirm this, consider that in the standard tactics of the battlelines (battleships in line) the two fleets have to go IN THE SAME DIRECTION, otherwise the rate of angle variation would be too high to keep track of the target.

[ed*b]

From the time of Dreadnought, the various navies realized that heavier and heavier guns would be needed to stop destroyers. For the Royal Navy, the first generation of dreadnoughts had 12 lber 12 CWT or 24 CWT guns - these are 3.4" 45 calibre or 50 calibre. Although they had a theoretically high rate of fire, ammunition supply would always be a limiting factor. The British found that these guns just did not have enough stopping power to seriously harm a destroyer. The second generation super-dreadnoughts mounted 4" guns, and by the time of the final battleships and battlecruisers this was up to 6" guns, which is what the Germans had been using all along. The reversion to 4" guns for Renown and Repulse was considered a major design error.