Squad sizes

[fullmetaljacket]

Anyone out there find a site or web image that would show the squad
size for different nations in world war two? What I'm looking for is
like. US 12 men 1 squad leader, 1 lmg 2 loaders 8 rifle that type of
information. Would greatly appreciate any one finding this kind of
information. For all different nations i know that they varied as the war went on, but a standard idea would be great.

fullmetaljacket

[voltigeur]

I have an old Z&M org chart that shows most of them. If you let me know what ones you need I can look them up. I know most of the major ones by memory.

[fullmetaljacket]

Thanks

Pretty much All US, British, German (infantry, Panzergren, & Airborne), Russian, French, and japanese.

Would be nice thanks and basic weapons for each member ie... squad leader MP 40, or Sten etc...

fullmetaljacket

[groundlber]

Another resource is Bayonet Strength's website : http://bayonetstrength.com . Lots of information on the British, American and German units. Some information on Russian, Italian and Japanese units, alomg with some other odds and ends of interest.
Groundlber

[voltigeur]

I'm still trying to figure out which box my Z&M book is in. But I wanted to get some info to you before the weekend was out.

From my research I do remember the Americans and Germans pretty well.

First the Americans: The TO&E called for 12 men divided in 2 teams and the squad leader. The first team was 6 men and contained the BAR. This team was the base of fire for the maneuver team of 5 men. It was common practice to have 2 men from the maneuver team to split off and act as a scout team. While the squad leader often carried a submachine gun that was not universally done. If a second submachine gun is called for in the TO&E it was usually the team leader of the first fire team. Due to casualties the squad strength was often 11 or 10 men.

The Marine Corps: Was 13 men. However the squad was organized with 3 fire teams of 4. All will be balanced in firepower. I need to look up the Bazooka. I saw a TO&E that called for a Bazooka to each squad but that conflicts another TO&E I saw. I need to research to see which in predominate. If you do use a TO&E that calls for a Bazooka in each squad it will replace the BAR in the 3rd fire team.

Second the Germans: All through the war they basically stayed with a 10 man squad; 2 teams of 4 rifles and a 2 man LMG team. If a Sub Machine Gun is called for in the TO&E it will be carried by the squad leader. (Will drop you to 7 rifles.) Casualties would usually leave the squads at 8 men (2 teams of 3 and the 2 man LMG team).

Hope this helps.

[Gort]

A good source for the German orgs is http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/ (look under KStN)

AIUI the Heer and SS used the same general organizations. Whether a squad had 1 lmg or 2 lmg was a question of transport. Leg Infantry squads had 1 lmg, Pz Grenadier squads had 2 lmg. At 1200 rpm for a MG42 that's a lot of ammo to hump if you don't have a ride.

Cheers

[voltigeur]

That was for a Heer Infantry Squad right? As I recall for an SS Infantry Squad you would add another LMG and take away 2 rifleman. For Volkgrenadier Squads I think you drop the LMG's and just go with rifles, I am fairly sure of that but could be wrong.

You are right I am looking at the HEER. My intent was to provide the 80% or what a country did most of the time.

I believe the second LMG in the SS was a function of dimounting the rear LMG from the 1/2 track when the squad dismounted. I don't remember a TO&E actually calling for it.

Germany at the time of the Volksgrenadier was scraping the bottom of the barrel. It is very likely that MG42's were not available or were not issued to troops that were not trained in how to use them.

By 1944 you also had American squads with 3 and 4 BAR's since every time a BAR man went down the other infantry "lost" thier M1's and "found" a BAR to replace it with. But it was never the TO&E.

One of the things that makes research fun is trying to figure out the differnece between TO&E (what was officially done) vs. what troops actually did. When I was in the Marines I can tell you we cheated all the time. If you looked at USMC publications of ammo loading you didn't have a full picture of what we actually did.

Anyway when I find my book I'll get the other squads up.

[Gridley]

Per strict TO&E, a US Army Rifle Squad had one squad leader, one assistant, one BAR gunner, one assistant, and one ammo bearer, two scouts, and five rifleman. Everyone except the BAR gunner had a rifle (he, naturally, had a BAR). M-1 rifles were standard, but the ASL sometimes had an M1903 with a grenade launcher until M7 GL's became available for the M-1 (1943, iirc). Eventually three M7 GL's were issued per squad.

Platoon HQ had one platoon leader, one platoon sergeant, one platoon guide, and two messengers. The PL had an M-1 carbine, everyone else a rifle, and the guide had an M7 for his rifle. One person per platoon (usually a rifleman) was designated as a marksman and issued an M1903A4 Sniper Rifle in place of his M-1.

In the ETO they fairly quickly issued six additional BARs and six SMGs to each rifle company, which filtered down to the platoons and squads. SMGs were also frequently acquired by other means, naturally, though they were extremely rare in the official infantry division TO&E (213, including 162 assigned to the rifle companies). To compare, I've seen figures that indicate that a US Army 1944 Medium Tank Battalion had as many as 437 SMG's (720 men, including 20 unarmed medics!).