U S Artillery - 1980's

Brigade Commander · Post by **Brigade Commander** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:35 am

Three items that I need help with. Hopefully someone, or even a few, on this forum was / were actually "on-the-ground" in 7th Army during the 1980's in the FA.

1) One of the Division-86 reorganization changes was to increase the firepower of FA by increasing the batteries from six howitzers to eight howitzers, eighteen to twenty-four per battalion, each. I only found one source, a FA homepage, that seemed to indicate it received additional howitzers. It described increasing firepower during the late '80's. Not very specific. Another source states the part of Division-86 regarding increasing the FA never happened. Don't know which is right.

2) I'm still trying to find a full battery and battalion TO&E for the Direct Support M-109 and General Support M-110 units. An M-270 battery TO&E would be nice to compare with what I've found so far would also be a help. Through many sources I've pieced together a number of the details of all these formations but have no full one-source list to work with for any of the formations.

3) Anyone come up with a way to model a TA Battery? I don't have a full battery TO&E and am also trying to figure how to make some of the vehicles that I even know about!

A lot I know but hopefully someone, or a few people, will be able to speak from experience on any or all of these items. Thanks!

ROGER_HOUSTON2EMC-ENG.COM · Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:44 am

My old battalion (1-230FA , 48BDE GA ARNG) barely made the reorg just before ODS when we got called up . Our sister battalions (1 and 2 214FA) were still 3x6 and never did go to Div 86 before they were consolidated into one battalion just after ODS. Part of why we did so poorly at the NTC as part of our pre-deployment training was that we had not mastered the 24 gun configuration and our service battery caught hell .
I have our old to&e binder somewhere in my stuff. I do know a typical firing battery had 3 humvees (thats right! no jeeps. no goats.) 2 deuce and a halfs ,2 M-577s, 8 M-109A3,
8 M-548 and we typically got a couple to a half dozen HEMETTS from Service Battery for ammo haul. FIST guys and survey came HQ battery, b ut they usually hung with us at the FDC. The M-578s and M-88s stayed with service battery for the most part, till they were needed. So did the fuel HEMETT and the ambulance.

Brigade Commander · Post by **Brigade Commander** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:32 am

Thanks! I appreciate the reply. It's great to hear from those that lived it.

It's kind of surprising that adding one howitzer per platoon caused that much turmoil(?). Just shows collateral damage, pardon the pun, can appear anywhere. Sort of emphasizes the importance of training, training and, oh yeah, training!

ROGER_HOUSTON2EMC-ENG.COM · Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:44 am

As you probably know, we were the DS battalion for the 48th Bde which we rounded out the 24th ID . Of course we could also provide DS to 1st and 2nd Bdes as well. The guys in 214 (or the 118th FA BDE) were still 3x6 and did not have organic FIST. They were also not wired into the divisional TACFIRE system. They were still driving jeeps, CUCVs and Goats when we had just went to all HUMVEES. Their service batteries were just getting HEMMETS for ammo haul (although they still had some MOGAS powered 5 tons from the 50's)
We did an AT one year at Stewart where we trianed with an 8" battalion from Kentucky (1-623rd ? I think?) They were in the midst of a reorg themselves and came down with the jeeps,goats, and a mixture of chevy and dodge CUCVs. They borrowed HEMMETS from a battalion with the Tennessee Guard for that AT . We hardly ever had our own stuff for camp. If it was broke at home, we borrowed from another unit not going or just getting back from AT. Probably why we went through the three rotations at the NTC before FORSCOM certified us ready to deploy to Saudi in 91.

Brigade Commander · Post by **Brigade Commander** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:05 am

Okay so I'm getting ready to complete the 2 - 3 Art M-109 battalion. I've worked from Mech and Tank battalion TO&E's and modified what I could find out. Since I'm trying to finalize my list for the, hoped for, December sale I will "run this up the flag pole" as they say.

-> Battalion Command: 3 tracks (M-577 / M-113 not sure of FA mix) and 3 HHMMWV's.
-> HQ Co. HQ: 4 HMMWV's.
-> Command (S-1, etc) Sect: 2 M-113's, 4 M-577's and 5 HMMWV's.
-> FSE: 15 M-981's. All I can figure out. I'm sure there are other tracks and HMMWV's. Maybe even a truck or two but I have no source for anything else.
-> Comm Sect: 1 M-577, 1 HMMWV and 1 Signal HMMWV.
-> Maint Plt: 6 HMMWV's, 14 M-35's, 3 M-88's, 4 M-578's and 1 M-936.
-> Support Plt: 2 HMMWV's, 2 M-35's, 2 fuel trucks (plt use), 12 M-977's (Bn LogPac) and 18 M-978's (Bn LogPac).

Medical, mortar and scout platoons are not present in the FA Battalion. Multiple sources agree on this. The last two don't surprise me but the medical part does. All sources state the FA Battalion has to rely on units it is supporting for medical services. So I assume that would be the brigade's FSB.

whoa Mohamed · Post by **whoa Mohamed** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:11 am

I want to state that the HHB in 1983-84 In 1/77 FA 1 Cav most certainly did have a medical detachment . It consisted of the following to the best of my memory
1 hard top M151 Used by the senior clinical ** CENSORED ** and PA.
2 soft top M151
3 Stretched M151 2 Litter soft tops
1 2 1/2 ton M35
6 Gamma goats
3 Inflatable NBC tent/trailer we only had the ability to tow 1 and used it as a field BN aid station it had heat and AC.
There were also 4 Soft top M151 that where not on the TO&E for each Medic attached to the firing Batteries A,B,C and HSC.
When with the Batteries I let the BC use my jeep as I rode with Charlie Battery in the FDC Track which was a M577
I remember 6 M109A1 ,6 M548 1 M35 and a Gamma Goat for the Bty survey party.
I can't remember what the commo section had .

whoa Mohamed · Post by **whoa Mohamed** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:14 am

Can a moderator please tell me why a word like Siera-papa-echo-charlie-india-alpha-lima-india-siera-tango....Gets censored this is getting stupid and make me not want to bother posting.....Mikey

ferret701 · Post by **ferret701** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:12 pm

Hi Brigade Commander --

I've done a fair bit of research on NATO Armies in the 1980s, with a fair bit of help from others. From what I've turned up, from interviews, articles, FA magazine, and other sources, most, if not all, regular army 155mm SP/155mm Towed artillery battalions converted to the 3x8 configuration by the late 1980s. However, the process was not complete with the 203mm SP units. While most RA divisions (except, IIRC, the 24th) had lost their divisional M110 battalion (replaced by a batter of 9 MLRS), not all corps M110 battalions had converted to the 3x8, and many were still in their original form (3x4). AFAIK, one corps in Germany had converted its artillery brigades to 3x8, and the process was underway in the other. Essentially, they got the guns after they left the divisions.

The process (for all artillery types) was much slower in the Guard. The first to switchover, at least theoretically, were the battalions assigned to the various roundout brigades, such as the 48th Mech mentioned above.

I've seen no evidence that any of the non-divisional (or even non-brigade) units converted to the new organization prior to the end of the Cold War. The plan was in place, but the defense cuts that began after FY86 slowed that process, along with a lot of others.

For more information, I've got the NATO OOB posted on my website, www.microarmormayhem.com.

Hope that helps, at least some,

Pat Callahan

whoa Mohamed · Post by **whoa Mohamed** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:03 pm

1/77 FA as late as 1983 still had 6 gun Batteries and M110 8 inchers I know becouse they shared the same Motorpool with us (1/77). ...Mikey

rdenman62 · Post by **rdenman62** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:23 pm

Brigade Commander, I have to agree with whoa Mohamed on the medical section. I was at Fort Hood 1980-83 1st BN 3rd FA 2 Armored Division and was NCOIC for the Medical Section. We were in 1st platoon HHB.....We had the Gamma Goats for our transports. The firing btrys were 3x6 and we had no humvees..all jeeps and M113 and M577's. For ammo trucks and fuel trucks we had M548 and GOERS...anyone remember them? 1st BN 92nd FA was our neighbor they had the M110 and was still in the 4 guns per Btry configuration....I recall a "Tab" battery but sure cant remember much about them. Its been a long time.....................

whoa Mohamed · Post by **whoa Mohamed** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:42 pm

I think our Tab was 1 a battery of 1 or 2 /82nd FA.....Mikey

Cav Dog · Post by **Cav Dog** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:42 pm

For the Target Acquisition Battery, I would go with 2 1/2 T trucks for each section towing trailer mounted radar systems, Q36/Q37, along with jeeps for command/signal/PADS vehicles. You could substitute CUCVs for some of the jeeps depending on when and where you are modelling. USAREUR went to CUCVs(Chevy Blazers) as interim vehicles between jeeps and hummers.

See this link and google the subsystems for photos:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 12/ch2.htm

How are your scratchbuilding skills?

PADS stands for Position and Azimuth Determining System, basically looks like a small ** CENSORED ** TV.

ROGER_HOUSTON2EMC-ENG.COM · Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:42 pm

The med section GOAT was a great place to catch some Zzzz's (As long as it was parked!) Would have hated having to be MEDEVAC'ed out in the thing though. The HUMVEE ambulance came along about '88 and we got 1 in Service Battery. All the Med Section pukes got dibbs on the litters, so they slept pretty good when we were in the woods. The bench seat in the 548 was about the best we could get .

whoa Mohamed · Post by **whoa Mohamed** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:02 am

Prob was no one was alowed to sleep in the vehicles , Sometimes they would let you sleep on the vehicles...Most of the time you picked out a spot and used the vehicles to form walls so the big tracks like the M88 or tanks would not run over you ....Mikey

ROGER_HOUSTON2EMC-ENG.COM · Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:44 am

Us Guard pukes had to get our beauty sleep somehow. It was culture shock to go to the NTC and have to set up a sleep plan at the ALOC and the FDC. When we were at Stewart for AT, we just got us some shut eye when we ready and we found the warmest place we could. We knew no different till "the great rotation" of 1990/1991 when we were introduced to reality.