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As the rules are nearly identical in the two books on this topic I figure clarification may be in order. (or I can't read )

As one moves off a minefield, the moving player must successfull pass a modified cohesion roll. If they succeed, and it turns out to be a minefield and not a dummy the moving stand is attacked. If the result of this attack is an S, (S), or D, does the moving player then have to make another successful cohesion (after the combat result is applied) roll to keep moving?
I would rule that it does.
Now, for this second roll do we apply the "leaving a minefield cohesion modifier" again or not. It has already suffered this penalty once so I don't think it should apply again but, as near as I can tell, the rules do not cover 'what happens' when the result of the CRT roll inflicts damage.

Thanks,
RedLeif

If the result of this attack is an S, (S), or D, does the moving player then have to make another successful cohesion (after the combat result is applied) roll to keep moving?

Are you asking about the stand needing another roll for leaving the minefield again?
If so, then the answer I would think is 'No'. Reason for this is that the stand has already attempted to move OFF of the mine marker, only to find out that its not a dummy stand, but an active stand. If the result ends with a D, then that stand has to rally before it can move.
When it does move, it should move normally as now that active mine marker is no more as its been used.

Hey Doug, why does a stand with a 'D' have to rally before it can move?
Also why do you say the marker is removed after a stand moves through it? I don't see that in the rules.

Basically the MATG rulebook provides no guidance on two issues regarding mines:
1) after a stand has successfully passed its cohesion to move out of a minefield, but suffers an attack from those mines and receives damage, does it then complete its move with or without a second cohesion roll?
A) move without a 2nd cohesion as their will, training, experience, commanders, etc has already been proven to be up to this challenge.
B) they must make a 2nd cohesion roll as the damage from the mines demands a new test of morale, training,l and determination.

2) what happens to a minefield after a platoon of tanks (or grunts or whatever) move through it?
A) the minefield is removed from play
B) the minefield is reduced in density by one level (or removed if at the Hasty strength)
C) the minefield remains in play unaltered (until an engineer unit shows up and clears it)

I'd appreciate all responses.

RedLeif

why does a stand with a 'D' have to rally before it can move?

Because 'D' is for Disorganized. But I also read it wrong too. If a stand is Disorganized, it can move, but has a +3 modifier to it, unless the stand has been ralled.

Also why do you say the marker is removed after a stand moves through it? I don't see that in the rules.

Rule 11.1.4
Any attempt to move OFF a mine marker requires a successful cohesion roll with a +3 die roll penalty. It is at the time that the owning player must inform his opponent whether the marker represents an active minefield or a 'dummy'.
If it is a 'dummy' it is removed from play for the remainder of the game. If active, the moving player undergoes a mine attack. The of minefield is determined and the owning player rolls 2D6 to obtain the result on the CRT based on that type.

To me, even if the mine marker is active, once the roll has been made to cause any sort of damage to the enemy stand, that mine is now spent. That's how I play it. Basically, the rules for MATG are flexible enough that you can do what you think is correct.

Answer too:
1) I would say yes to completing its movement without a second roll. But remember as well, if the mine attack ends in an 'E' - Eliminated, that stand is now removed from play. If the result is an S or D, then you have to factor in the modifier for its next turn.
Basically as I see it and how I play it, if the stand wants to leave the minefield and passes the roll and its an active mine marker, then deal with the mine attack and let the stand move a max of 2 inches. That's what I do.

2) See answer above.

I hope this helps.

Thank you Doug,
As you well know, I too have misread a rule before. No worries, just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something.

I am inclined to agree with you on the second cohesion roll issue. I'm amending my 'house rules' to read:

11.1.X Any attempt to move off a mine marker requires a successful cohesion roll with a +3 die roll penalty. If the roll was successful the controlling player of the minefield must inform their opponent of what the marker represents. If the marker represented a dummy, it is removed from play and the moving stand completes its movement. If the marker represented an actual minefield, its recorded density is revealed and the controlling player makes a roll on the CRT and consults the appropriate combat differential column for the density of the minefield. The combat result is applied to the moving stand and then, unless ‘eliminated’, it may finish its move. It does not have to roll a second cohesion check, after applying the CRT result, to complete this movement this phase. In following phases and turns the crt results affect the stand normally.

11.1.Y After a stand has moved off the minefield marker, reduce the density by one level until it is at the Hasty level. Additional stands traversing this minefield will not reduce it below Hasty density. Hasty level minefields may only be removed by artillery or engineers (see below).

But as you can see ni my second rule, I feel differently about removing minefields after they've been traversed by a platoon.

Thanks again for sharing your views and choices. I really appreciate it. Maybe a second edition will clear it up someday. but until then happy gaming!

Leif

A stand occupying an enemy minefield must make the cohesion die roll per the Joint Movement Phase rules, albeit with the +3 cohesion die roll penalty. I'm sorry this was not more clear in the rules. The answer to Redlief's question for what happens after a friendly unit successfully traverse an enemy minefield is : C) the minefield remains in play unaltered (until an engineer unit shows up and clears it) . Or friendly artillery reduces it. As for Redlief's suggested house rule : " 11.1.Y After a stand has moved off the minefield marker, reduce the density by one level until it is at the Hasty level. Additional stands traversing this minefield will not reduce it below Hasty density. Hasty level minefields may only be removed by artillery or engineers." I have no objections to players adopting this. It seems to make a lot of sense. This topic demonstrates how difficult it is to design a set of rules that cover every contingency and still keep them from becoming Advanced Squad Leader!

I'm gonna have to disagree with that house rule. I think that it will encourage "gaminess" from players. All you have to do is take your least valuable unit(s) and march them back and forth over the minefield to render it relatively harmless. A -2 on the CRT is little more than a speed bump.

In MATG-Modern the minefield is more completely thought out:

"10.03.07 ...Once the results of the mine attack are determined, a second modified Cohesion die-roll must be made. If this roll is successful you may move the stand as you wish. Otherwise, the stand is "frozen" in place until the next movement phase. A stand may be attacked over and over again by the same minefield whenever it attempts to escape it until such time as it successfully exits the field or is eliminated.
Stands are not attacked by "friendly" minefields. However, stands must "halt" and make a successful modified Cohesion die-roll to move off a "friendly" minefield as above.

10.03.08 Minefields may be "Neutralized" (i.e. "Destroyed") in several ways. Artillery Fire (Rule 07.09.12), Air-Strikes (Rule 07.13.08.), Engineers (Rule 10.07.02), or "Mine-Clearing" vehicles (Rule 10.07.05) may be used against them."

Until properly cleared, a minefield should be considered the gift that keeps on giving.

cheers

microgeorge wrote:A stand occupying an enemy minefield must make the cohesion die roll per the Joint Movement Phase rules, albeit with the +3 cohesion die roll penalty. I'm sorry this was not more clear in the rules. The answer to Redlief's question for what happens after a friendly unit successfully traverse an enemy minefield is : C) the minefield remains in play unaltered (until an engineer unit shows up and clears it) . Or friendly artillery reduces it.

Hey thanks microgeorge, that makes alot more sense.

gort wrote:10.03.08 Minefields may be "Neutralized" (i.e. "Destroyed") in several ways. Artillery Fire (Rule 07.09.12), Air-Strikes (Rule 07.13.08.), Engineers (Rule 10.07.02), or "Mine-Clearing" vehicles (Rule 10.07.05) may be used against them."

Yep...I just read that part in my copy of Modern rules. Now, during WWII, were minefields taken out with artillery at all? Or is it mainly for engineers and mine clearing vehicles at that time?
I think I may just do a small type up and and add it to my copy of MATG.

Doh! I should have looked in my modern rules too. I haven't cracked 'um open in years as that's just not my era, but they were written after the WWII MATG rules had been played for a while and likely do have some ideas that addressed a few issues in MATG and could be applied to WWII situations.

Gort, I think you're probably going to be right about the gaminess of my proposed '.Y' rule. I'll revise it to conform with the modern rules. DougEagle's comments got me thinking about all the problems we still have with 'left over' mine fields in today's battlefields.
'Removing them' after getting run over just didn't feel right to me. It was' to easy' from my experience but leaving them at full strength sounded to 'mean' too. But I think the Modernr rules are probably the best text to adopt regarding this situation.

Thanks MicroGeorge, I really appreciate you taking a look at this too. And you're spot on regarding complexity. The more I dig into situations the more complicated it seems and first inclination is 'make a special rule' but that just muddies things up so much so quickly.

Thanks all for contributing to this, it has been really helpful.
RedLeif

Modern rules notwithsatnding, clearing minefield with artillery is not usually considered effective..

During WWII US Army considered artillery ineffective agamst mionefield and wire and using it thus is just a squanering ammunition (Field Artillery Manual FM 6-40)

The other nations of the war were of the same idea with the exceprion of Soviet Army that considered it possible nition.

There are two reasons for this opinion The numeber of shells and the time necessary to have some effects and the fact that clearing all the mines may be more difficult after the ground has been stirred up by the long artillery fire. The overturned ground make also more difficult crossing it.

I have found the followimng hard data from a study at the time of the Italian Army on this subject, concluding that the ammunition expenditure would be excessive.. The area covered by a single shell was the following (by calibre):
81mm mortar 2 sqm
100mm 3 sqm
149mm 7 sqm

That means that to open a 10m x 100m lane in a minefiemd would require (as a minimujm) 500 81mm shells or 150 149mm shells and without a granted result. Considering the rate of fire for a long fire mission these value correspond to an hour of fire of a battery.

Besides upsetting the ground this long concentration will signal to the enemy the breach under way.

Thank you TAMMY, That is really outstanding data to support your point. I have adjusted my own rules to make it much more difficult for artillery to clear mines.

As I edit and consolidate the rules for WWII platoon scale gaming I'm adding more complexity in some instances. I do fear this as I'm not really looking to play advanced squad leader. Yet I am interested in simulating the battlefield environments of WWII.
I know I am going to have to play test these rules considerably before I'm happy with them.

Thanks
RedLeif