Hi guys,
I´d like to start a Micro Armour Army. It should be a German Late War Army. After consulting the many available scenarios I´m not sure how to start my army... The Combat Command Boxes alone don´t seem to work for the scenarios, so I will have to build some more units around any Command Box.
I´d appreciate any recommendation how to start.
Ragnar65
Recommendation for Beginner´s Army
Moderators: dnichols, GHQ, Mk 1
-
piersyf
- E5
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:59 pm
- Location: Melbourne Australia
Hi. My German force is late WW2 and I've spent quite a bit of time looking at force structures at the time. Basically, they had lots of foot troops. Tanks are rare. Halftracks are rare. Heavy tanks are very rare.
With that in mind I'd recommend the StuGIII combat command. You get decent command and control vehicles, the StuGs and Jagdpanzers were far more frequently encountered than tanks, and it is a solid base if you choose to expand.
Basically, the StuG combat command and a pack of late war infantry give you a combined arms team; rifle squads ride on the StuGs and the heavy weapon platoon and infantry command group ride in the three trucks.
From this you can add a few packs of trucks ( normal late war allocation was 2 opel blitz 3 ton per platoon, so 3 packs and a command pack (kubels, kettenrads, motorcycles) will lift a battalion, and that's at 1:1!
A company of tanks later (PzIV or Panther) and you're on your way to Brigade Group... add artillery later still and you're on your way to a panzer division kampfgruppe (my force), and in the meantime your StuGs have been taking the artillery role.
One option, at least...
P
With that in mind I'd recommend the StuGIII combat command. You get decent command and control vehicles, the StuGs and Jagdpanzers were far more frequently encountered than tanks, and it is a solid base if you choose to expand.
Basically, the StuG combat command and a pack of late war infantry give you a combined arms team; rifle squads ride on the StuGs and the heavy weapon platoon and infantry command group ride in the three trucks.
From this you can add a few packs of trucks ( normal late war allocation was 2 opel blitz 3 ton per platoon, so 3 packs and a command pack (kubels, kettenrads, motorcycles) will lift a battalion, and that's at 1:1!
A company of tanks later (PzIV or Panther) and you're on your way to Brigade Group... add artillery later still and you're on your way to a panzer division kampfgruppe (my force), and in the meantime your StuGs have been taking the artillery role.
One option, at least...
P
-
Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Piersyf's recommendations look very good to me.
But ... might I also pose some questions?
1. Are you building at 1-to-1 unit scale (as for GHQ's MicroSquad rules), or 1-to-platoon (like GHQ's MicroArmor, the Game rules)? It will make a difference in the details of what gets recommended.
What do you like? Some possible preference statements that help bring resolution to your question:
2. Are you aiming for historical accuracy? Or are you more concerned with fun or with playability?
3. Do you want a general-purpose force, that can be drawn from for lots of different scenarios?
Do you want a particular kind of force?
4. Do you like lots of big bad super-tanks?
5. Do you like lots of infantry?
6. Do you like fast light recon forces?
Or ... do you know know, and just want to start exploring?
The advantage of late-war Germans is that they were masters of improvisation. You can come up with a justification of just about any TOE you want.
Remember, if you want "historical accuracy", and you want a late war German force, you should be prepared to loose lots of games. From 1944 on the Germans lost almost every battle (though not every tactical engagement). The overwhelming experience of a German soldier from 1944 onwards was not a question of winning battles, but of struggling to survive through the loss of battle after battle. The Germans, in 1944 and 1945, had the losingest army in modern history. They lost more battles, more territory, and a larger strategic resource base than any military ever.
That's not always a lot of fun for a beginning wargamer. So most scenarios are "balanced" for fun gameplay at the expense of historical accuracy. At which point one might wonder if it is worth too much effort bulding a historically accurate force. Better one that is just fun to play.
Also, the great majority of WW2 battles were infantry engagements. But quite honestly, in my experience most beginners enjoy tanks more than infantry at this scale.
Which leads me towards my questions above. Might be better to start with a Tiger or Panther kampfgruppe just for the fun of playing big bad uber-tanks.
But ... might I also pose some questions?
1. Are you building at 1-to-1 unit scale (as for GHQ's MicroSquad rules), or 1-to-platoon (like GHQ's MicroArmor, the Game rules)? It will make a difference in the details of what gets recommended.
What do you like? Some possible preference statements that help bring resolution to your question:
2. Are you aiming for historical accuracy? Or are you more concerned with fun or with playability?
3. Do you want a general-purpose force, that can be drawn from for lots of different scenarios?
Do you want a particular kind of force?
4. Do you like lots of big bad super-tanks?
5. Do you like lots of infantry?
6. Do you like fast light recon forces?
Or ... do you know know, and just want to start exploring?
The advantage of late-war Germans is that they were masters of improvisation. You can come up with a justification of just about any TOE you want.
Remember, if you want "historical accuracy", and you want a late war German force, you should be prepared to loose lots of games. From 1944 on the Germans lost almost every battle (though not every tactical engagement). The overwhelming experience of a German soldier from 1944 onwards was not a question of winning battles, but of struggling to survive through the loss of battle after battle. The Germans, in 1944 and 1945, had the losingest army in modern history. They lost more battles, more territory, and a larger strategic resource base than any military ever.
That's not always a lot of fun for a beginning wargamer. So most scenarios are "balanced" for fun gameplay at the expense of historical accuracy. At which point one might wonder if it is worth too much effort bulding a historically accurate force. Better one that is just fun to play.
Also, the great majority of WW2 battles were infantry engagements. But quite honestly, in my experience most beginners enjoy tanks more than infantry at this scale.
Which leads me towards my questions above. Might be better to start with a Tiger or Panther kampfgruppe just for the fun of playing big bad uber-tanks.
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
-
Ragnar65
- E5
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:08 pm
Well, primarily I´d like to play MicroSquad.Mk 1 wrote: 1. Are you building at 1-to-1 unit scale (as for GHQ's MicroSquad rules), or 1-to-platoon (like GHQ's MicroArmor, the Game rules)? It will make a difference in the details of what gets recommended.
It should be a good balance between fun and accuracy.Mk 1 wrote:
2. Are you aiming for historical accuracy? Or are you more concerned with fun or with playability?
Yeah, that´s what I have in mind. I´d like to play lots of different scenarios. I´m well aware that this way the accuracy will suffer, but I don´t have the budget to buy all those units listed in the TO&Es of every scenario...Mk 1 wrote:
3. Do you want a general-purpose force, that can be drawn from for lots of different scenarios?
I like Tanks, but I want a balance between Infantry, AFVs und such. For the future I´m planning to have some of every kind in my depot - Infantry, Recce, towed guns, tanks etc. As said before, the starting force should provide good and enough troops to play lot´s of scenarios (not down to the detail, but the basic idea of the scenario)...Mk 1 wrote:
4. Do you like lots of big bad super-tanks?
5. Do you like lots of infantry?
6. Do you like fast light recon forces?
Ragnar65
-
Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
> Well, primarily I´d like to play MicroSquad.
Ah, a gamer after my own heart. I too have a strong preference for 1-to-1 unit scale.
Based on you replies, I am back to agreeing with pretty much everything Piersyf suggests. His idea really is a good one.
Using his suggestion you can put together a StuG-centered kampfgruppe. This would have been the primary "fire brigade" for most divisions on the eastern front. Any time a Soviet offensive punched through the infantry line, this kampfgruppe would have been the first responders, rushing forward to try to set up a hastey blocking position along the most likely route of advance, or better yet counter-attacking into the flanks of the penetration. Either case gives ample opportunities for advance-to-contact or hasty attack vs. hasty defense scenarios.
Also a StuG force as a starting point gives you choices in how you build over time. StuGs were the principal armor of the infantry divisions (along with the occasional Panzer Jaegers or Sturm Panzers). By late war StuGs also made up 1/3 to 1/2 of the armor in most panzer divisions. So as your force grows you can add Pz IVs and Panthers, or infantry, AT guns, artillery, and panzer jaegers. Or both.
Sounds like a very good starting point. I'd be happy to shoot them up on any occasion!
Ah, a gamer after my own heart. I too have a strong preference for 1-to-1 unit scale.
Based on you replies, I am back to agreeing with pretty much everything Piersyf suggests. His idea really is a good one.
Using his suggestion you can put together a StuG-centered kampfgruppe. This would have been the primary "fire brigade" for most divisions on the eastern front. Any time a Soviet offensive punched through the infantry line, this kampfgruppe would have been the first responders, rushing forward to try to set up a hastey blocking position along the most likely route of advance, or better yet counter-attacking into the flanks of the penetration. Either case gives ample opportunities for advance-to-contact or hasty attack vs. hasty defense scenarios.
Also a StuG force as a starting point gives you choices in how you build over time. StuGs were the principal armor of the infantry divisions (along with the occasional Panzer Jaegers or Sturm Panzers). By late war StuGs also made up 1/3 to 1/2 of the armor in most panzer divisions. So as your force grows you can add Pz IVs and Panthers, or infantry, AT guns, artillery, and panzer jaegers. Or both.
Sounds like a very good starting point. I'd be happy to shoot them up on any occasion!
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
-
Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Ragnar65 wrote:As the StuGs are some of my favorites, the idea of building a Kampfgruppe looks good to me.
Ah yes, StuGs are among my favorites too, and boy do they look good to me. Particularly when BBQ'd.
If you are referring to the Panzergrenadiers in the GHQ catalog ... those figures are seated models to be put into the German halftracks. Or anywhere else you want a nice assortment of seated figures and figures firing AAMGs on pedestals. But for infantry combat troops you want some of the infantry figures -- the late war individual infantry might do you well, and I am told they are quite nice, though I don't have any in my own collection. If you go instead with the earlier "standard" individual infantry figures you will have a slightly more flexible force, as you can then use them (and your StuGs) for scenarios ranging back to as early as 1943 or even late 1942.What do you think of replacing "normal" Grenadiers with Panzergrenadiers?
If you are suggesting how you paint them up, rather than which figures to buy ... well I claim no particular knowledge of German WW2 uniforms, but I don't think you will have too many objections to any renditions of German WW2 uniforms on most game tables. Seems by late war that the German army was a pretty mixed bag on who wore what, and with supply in such poor shape almost any tunic or smock could be justified on almost any troops.
Or so I've read.
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
-
Ragnar65
- E5
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:08 pm
Hi,
the question of replacing Grenadiers with with Panzergrenadiers in my core troop is neither a question of which GHQ-set to use nor how to paint them... To be honest, in other gaming systems there are some differences between them in the way how to play them... But further diving into the TO&Es reveal that the only difference here in MATG or MS is the 1 point higher HE-ability of the P/Gs... And of course the slightly higher point costs...
Well, my next big thing to do is to find some guys in my vicinity who would start Micro Armour... I don´t wanna play only Solo-games...
Ragnar65
the question of replacing Grenadiers with with Panzergrenadiers in my core troop is neither a question of which GHQ-set to use nor how to paint them... To be honest, in other gaming systems there are some differences between them in the way how to play them... But further diving into the TO&Es reveal that the only difference here in MATG or MS is the 1 point higher HE-ability of the P/Gs... And of course the slightly higher point costs...
Well, my next big thing to do is to find some guys in my vicinity who would start Micro Armour... I don´t wanna play only Solo-games...
Ragnar65
-
General Retreat
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:02 am
- Location: North of Dayton, Ohio
-
RedLeif
- E5
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
- Contact:
I'd add that a couple of G144's (inf) and a G145 (inf supt wpns) (30$) easily gives you enough figures for an infantry battalion in platoon scale, which I think would basically translate to a company in squad scale. I'd bet that just 1 G144 and 1 G145 would give you enough infantry for a couple of platoons pretty easily.
This same group of infantry stands can easily be augmented later with trucks to become Fusiliers, 251's to become pz grens or 250's to become Aufklarungs battalion infantry (which were often paired with the Stug Btln. to form a mobile reserve).
The GHQ infantry are amazingly detailed compared to other brands I own.
Buy 2 packs of T-34/85's, spray 'um green and loan them to a victim, uh I mean friend. I've been regularly promoting MATG at a local store now for about 3 months and I'm finally starting to hear some people say 'I think I'll get a couple of packs and work them up'. So don't be surprised if it takes a while to find others willing to dive in with you. Be prepared to field both sides for a while.
best regards,
RedLeif
This same group of infantry stands can easily be augmented later with trucks to become Fusiliers, 251's to become pz grens or 250's to become Aufklarungs battalion infantry (which were often paired with the Stug Btln. to form a mobile reserve).
The GHQ infantry are amazingly detailed compared to other brands I own.
Buy 2 packs of T-34/85's, spray 'um green and loan them to a victim, uh I mean friend. I've been regularly promoting MATG at a local store now for about 3 months and I'm finally starting to hear some people say 'I think I'll get a couple of packs and work them up'. So don't be surprised if it takes a while to find others willing to dive in with you. Be prepared to field both sides for a while.
best regards,
RedLeif
-
Mk 1
- E5
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:21 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
True words, those.RedLeif wrote:Be prepared to field both sides for a while.
I think most experienced micro-armor gamers will echo the sentiment. You pretty much must build an "adversary force" to loan to others if you want to find gaming opponants.
I have done so several times. Started that way in Jr. High School when I was 13 - 14. Built a Soviet WW2 force, but had to also get some WW2 Germans to have something to fight against. Wound up selling them to my primary opponent. Which worked fine, for a while.
More recently I have built an Italian force, and a Romanian force, to be adversaries for my Soviets. But they look so good, and well, who wouldn't want to run Italians or Romanians against the Soviets from time to time. So which one is the adversary, and which one is my own force?
Also built a WW2 US Army force. And an early war French force. Only 3 days of fighting between them (in Algeria and Morocco). But I can always add my Italians, and get another 9 months of combat time (Tunisia). And of course I can turn my US forces against my Soviets for a late 1945 "what-if" scenario.
And I have, indeed, loaned my forces to others in order to game every one of those timeframes/theaters described above. Which is why I put 'em together!
-Mark 1
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
Difficile est, saturam non scribere.
"It is hard NOT to write satire." - Decimus Iunius Juvenalis, 1st Century AD
-
green beanie
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:15 pm
-
General Retreat
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:02 am
- Location: North of Dayton, Ohio
I love my little Hetzers. I also bought some Pz Jager I's early on. Bought 'em cuz they look neat. 
Not worth much and haven't used against the far stronger stuff I have. But I'm acquiring early WWII armor to fight those early battles, so they'll come into their own then. Looked up images of the Pz Jager I and saw that they made it into Russia. Have to wonder how long they lasted there against T-34s! 
I also bought some Pz Jager I's early on. Bought 'em cuz they look neat. Not worth much and haven't used against the far stronger stuff I have. But I'm acquiring early WWII armor to fight those early battles, so they'll come into their own then. Looked up images of the Pz Jager I and saw that they made it into Russia. Have to wonder how long they lasted there against T-34s!