MS TO&E's
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RedLeif
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Hello Sepp,
After you look through the MATG Hungarian weapons list in the book, I'd really appreciate hearing what you think are missing from the Hungarian Weapons Data. I'm working on updating the MATG weapons list and have stats for almost all of the following:
Turan I (40ml51)
Toldi I or II(20mm)
Toldi II a (40mm)
Panzer 38T (37L48)
Panzer III N (75L24)
Panzer IV F1 (75L24)
Panzer IV F2-H (7.5cm)
36m 37mm ATG
50mm PaK 38 (Ger.)
75mm PaK '97 (Ger.)
75mm paK 40 (Ger.)
8cm Mortar ∆ (2)
75L15 Mtn. Htzr. m.15 [1]
FK m.17 Mtn/Fld Gun (76L30) [2]
FK m.18 Gun (76L33) [2]
100mm Mtn/Fld Htzr. (m. 14/19) [2]
105mm lFH18 [2]
149L14 m. 14 Htzr. [2]
149L20 m.15 Htzr. [2]
149L27mm K. Series Htzr. [2]
210L22 Mdl 35 [2]
Zrinyi
Turan II
Nimrod
Csaba
Headquarters
Infantry '41
Infantry '44
Infantry Support
Bicycle Infantry
Cavalry
Cavalry Support
Car (kubelwagon)
Botond M37 Light Truck
Daimler-Steyr Lt Truck
Ford/Mar. Her. Medium Truck
Artillery Limber
Wagon
One weapon group I think needs a little help is the AAG's. My main source on this topic indicates they had German 88's, 37's and 20's. I've also found reference to the Hungarians using the Skoda 14M 76.5mm AAG but the closest cross reference I have to that is the SKoda 8 cm (76.5mm) PL kanon vz. 37 and or the Skoda 7.5 cm kanon PL vz. 37.
The source on the Skoda 7.5 vz 37 shows it was used by the Czech's and also the Italians and Finns. So my inclination is to use it for the Hungarians too. But the source doesn't confirm this. At least it would be 'representational', but if I can verify it I'd be a lot happier about including it in their list. If it was used by all four that would be a bonus. One benefit to a weapon used by multiple countries is it may influence GHQ's willingness to model it for us, but then again maybe not.
Did I miss anything else that is significant? Please let me know.
As for the TO&E's credible source data down to the squad level is challenging to come by. If you know of any send them my way please. I can get it down to company and sometime platoon level. There are some Hungarian websites I've been too but unfortunately Google doesn't translate these at all.
best regards
RedLeif
After you look through the MATG Hungarian weapons list in the book, I'd really appreciate hearing what you think are missing from the Hungarian Weapons Data. I'm working on updating the MATG weapons list and have stats for almost all of the following:
Turan I (40ml51)
Toldi I or II(20mm)
Toldi II a (40mm)
Panzer 38T (37L48)
Panzer III N (75L24)
Panzer IV F1 (75L24)
Panzer IV F2-H (7.5cm)
36m 37mm ATG
50mm PaK 38 (Ger.)
75mm PaK '97 (Ger.)
75mm paK 40 (Ger.)
8cm Mortar ∆ (2)
75L15 Mtn. Htzr. m.15 [1]
FK m.17 Mtn/Fld Gun (76L30) [2]
FK m.18 Gun (76L33) [2]
100mm Mtn/Fld Htzr. (m. 14/19) [2]
105mm lFH18 [2]
149L14 m. 14 Htzr. [2]
149L20 m.15 Htzr. [2]
149L27mm K. Series Htzr. [2]
210L22 Mdl 35 [2]
Zrinyi
Turan II
Nimrod
Csaba
Headquarters
Infantry '41
Infantry '44
Infantry Support
Bicycle Infantry
Cavalry
Cavalry Support
Car (kubelwagon)
Botond M37 Light Truck
Daimler-Steyr Lt Truck
Ford/Mar. Her. Medium Truck
Artillery Limber
Wagon
One weapon group I think needs a little help is the AAG's. My main source on this topic indicates they had German 88's, 37's and 20's. I've also found reference to the Hungarians using the Skoda 14M 76.5mm AAG but the closest cross reference I have to that is the SKoda 8 cm (76.5mm) PL kanon vz. 37 and or the Skoda 7.5 cm kanon PL vz. 37.
The source on the Skoda 7.5 vz 37 shows it was used by the Czech's and also the Italians and Finns. So my inclination is to use it for the Hungarians too. But the source doesn't confirm this. At least it would be 'representational', but if I can verify it I'd be a lot happier about including it in their list. If it was used by all four that would be a bonus. One benefit to a weapon used by multiple countries is it may influence GHQ's willingness to model it for us, but then again maybe not.
Did I miss anything else that is significant? Please let me know.
As for the TO&E's credible source data down to the squad level is challenging to come by. If you know of any send them my way please. I can get it down to company and sometime platoon level. There are some Hungarian websites I've been too but unfortunately Google doesn't translate these at all.
best regards
RedLeif
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kiasutha
- E5
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:10 pm
For your pleasure, "in English" this time-
http://denes.us/forums/YaBB.pl
The guy responsible is writing "THE BOOK" on Hungary in WW2.
There are several lists of weapons,vehicles,etc on the forum if you can find them in the posts...
On the flak question-
the Hungarians license built 40mm Bofors guns in substantial numbers; this was also used on the Nimrod.
They used another Bofors AA gun- an 80mm, as well as the German weapons.
The site above also lists several Czech 76.2mm AAg's.
Hungary also produced the Pak 36 under license,but their version was chambered for a 40mm.
Over 200 Belgian 47mm ATG's were supplied by Germany, as were Czech 37mm's.
One of the most obscure things I've found was the Bohler 47mm AT/IG; this is the same weapon used by Romania and Italy (licensed as Breda)
Proof finally turned up in a photo of a Hungarian horse drawn mountain battery.
There is a copy over on the Axis History forum somewhere...
Enjoy...
http://denes.us/forums/YaBB.pl
The guy responsible is writing "THE BOOK" on Hungary in WW2.
There are several lists of weapons,vehicles,etc on the forum if you can find them in the posts...
On the flak question-
the Hungarians license built 40mm Bofors guns in substantial numbers; this was also used on the Nimrod.
They used another Bofors AA gun- an 80mm, as well as the German weapons.
The site above also lists several Czech 76.2mm AAg's.
Hungary also produced the Pak 36 under license,but their version was chambered for a 40mm.
Over 200 Belgian 47mm ATG's were supplied by Germany, as were Czech 37mm's.
One of the most obscure things I've found was the Bohler 47mm AT/IG; this is the same weapon used by Romania and Italy (licensed as Breda)
Proof finally turned up in a photo of a Hungarian horse drawn mountain battery.
There is a copy over on the Axis History forum somewhere...
Enjoy...
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RedLeif
- E5
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
- Contact:
Thanks Kiasutha,
The Denes site is one of my favorite sources. I've used that list to search for more details elsewhere. As for the Game list, I won't include everything, as it just really isn't needed. But having a few AA guns would be nice for gamers and modelers to have. I'm trying to make sure every county list has at least one 35 to 40mm AA gun as well as something in the 75 to 90mm range. More is better but just getting at least one of each is the basic goal. And thanks for the data you've provided, I'll be updating my list.I didn't know they re-chambered the PaK36, that's interesting.
Sepp,
Your initial point was 'there's missing weapons from the MSTG list." What would you like data on for the MSTG lists? What's missing in your opinion, I'll try to help get you stats and costs for anything you want, just let me know.
Thanks
RedLeif
The Denes site is one of my favorite sources. I've used that list to search for more details elsewhere. As for the Game list, I won't include everything, as it just really isn't needed. But having a few AA guns would be nice for gamers and modelers to have. I'm trying to make sure every county list has at least one 35 to 40mm AA gun as well as something in the 75 to 90mm range. More is better but just getting at least one of each is the basic goal. And thanks for the data you've provided, I'll be updating my list.I didn't know they re-chambered the PaK36, that's interesting.
Sepp,
Your initial point was 'there's missing weapons from the MSTG list." What would you like data on for the MSTG lists? What's missing in your opinion, I'll try to help get you stats and costs for anything you want, just let me know.
Thanks
RedLeif
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kiasutha
- E5
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:10 pm
RedLeif:
Unfortunate there is so little in english on the hungarians.
Denes books should help, but they're pretty expensive..
On the Pak 36- AFAIK they didn't re-chamber the guns bought from Germany,but the license made guns were 40mm.
If I recall correctly, it was the same round used in the Turan-1.
Well,my x-Mas order just showed up; must get a look at those Pz-4 bridge layers...
Unfortunate there is so little in english on the hungarians.
Denes books should help, but they're pretty expensive..
On the Pak 36- AFAIK they didn't re-chamber the guns bought from Germany,but the license made guns were 40mm.
If I recall correctly, it was the same round used in the Turan-1.
Well,my x-Mas order just showed up; must get a look at those Pz-4 bridge layers...
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Sepp
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:12 am
- Location: Stanardsville VA USA
Wow! You guys are way past me as far as the Hungarian weapons go. How much different are the stats in MATG than MS? Where does the Boyes A/T rifle fit in to the BEF Infantry and what are its stats. The 88pak 43/41 had the facing restrictions not the Pak 43 which was on a cruciform for all around defense. Also should the height difference between Pak 43 and Pak 43/41 be taken into consideration?
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RedLeif
- E5
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- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
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Hi TAMMY and Kiasutha,
thanks for the update/correction re. the hun. PaK 36. still interesting.
Hi Sepp,
The stats are rather different in value , but usually have the following relationships.
The MSTG Range stats are 4x the range of MATG. Or MATG ranges are 1/4 the range of MSTG.
Speeds are adjusted as well. The formula is ((MATG speed *4)/3) = MSTG speed.
I believe the author of MSTG adjusted some firepower and armor values from those in MATG, based on his research and interpretation.
As I redo my MATG weapons list I'm doing the some of that too.
RedLeif
thanks for the update/correction re. the hun. PaK 36. still interesting.
Hi Sepp,
The stats are rather different in value , but usually have the following relationships.
The MSTG Range stats are 4x the range of MATG. Or MATG ranges are 1/4 the range of MSTG.
Speeds are adjusted as well. The formula is ((MATG speed *4)/3) = MSTG speed.
I believe the author of MSTG adjusted some firepower and armor values from those in MATG, based on his research and interpretation.
As I redo my MATG weapons list I'm doing the some of that too.
RedLeif
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RedLeif
- E5
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
- Contact:
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TAMMY
- E5
- Posts: 865
- Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:09 am
- Location: MILANO, ITALY
Sepp
as far as I know the Boys AT reifle was not in the infantry companies of the BEF. It was mounted on the Bren carrier and there were 4 in the AA Platoon of the infantry battalion. I do not know if they were kept under HQ control or distribuited to the infantry platoons.
For the 88mm you are right. The facinmg restriction should apply to Pak 43/41 as the Pak 43 had s 360° traverse. The Pak 43/41 was about a foot higher than the deployed Pak 43. It may be that a defense of 3 (like the 105mm LH 18) will be more correct but I cannot be categoric as I do not know how this value is calculated in the game.
as far as I know the Boys AT reifle was not in the infantry companies of the BEF. It was mounted on the Bren carrier and there were 4 in the AA Platoon of the infantry battalion. I do not know if they were kept under HQ control or distribuited to the infantry platoons.
For the 88mm you are right. The facinmg restriction should apply to Pak 43/41 as the Pak 43 had s 360° traverse. The Pak 43/41 was about a foot higher than the deployed Pak 43. It may be that a defense of 3 (like the 105mm LH 18) will be more correct but I cannot be categoric as I do not know how this value is calculated in the game.
Ubicumque et semper
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Sepp
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:12 am
- Location: Stanardsville VA USA
Boyes A/T rifle
Hi Tammy
Thanks for your input. I still have not found any stats on the boyes A/T rifle. I think, as you point out that it may have been distributed to the platoons, which would make quite a difference. At least you take down the little Pz1
Thanks Redlief, I will try and work with the stats from MATG as I am thinking of getting into building late war Hungarian unit.
Thanks for your input. I still have not found any stats on the boyes A/T rifle. I think, as you point out that it may have been distributed to the platoons, which would make quite a difference. At least you take down the little Pz1
Thanks Redlief, I will try and work with the stats from MATG as I am thinking of getting into building late war Hungarian unit.
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Sepp
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:12 am
- Location: Stanardsville VA USA
Boyes A/T rifle
Hi Tammy
Thanks for your input. I still have not found any stats on the boyes A/T rifle. I think, as you point out that it may have been distributed to the platoons, which would make quite a difference. At least you take down the little Pz1
Thanks Redlief, I will try and work with the stats from MATG as I am thinking of getting into building late war Hungarian unit.
Thanks for your input. I still have not found any stats on the boyes A/T rifle. I think, as you point out that it may have been distributed to the platoons, which would make quite a difference. At least you take down the little Pz1
Thanks Redlief, I will try and work with the stats from MATG as I am thinking of getting into building late war Hungarian unit.
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RedLeif
- E5
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 3:11 am
- Location: Boise, ID
- Contact:
Hi Sepp,
turns I got some time last night to do some online searching and wrote the following:
The author of the MSTG rules says something to the effect of ‘you may wish to ‘play with’ the anti tank capability of infantry stands’. So this is what I’ve come up with:
I’m no expert on the BEF or UK organizations or weapons so if I’m totally out in left field with this, well don’t say I didn’t warn you. It appears to me that the BEF infantry regiments had 3 battalions of infantry and up to 1 company of 9x 25mm French ATG’s, so I’m guessing there were 3 platoons of 3 guns each in that company.
But in the infantry battalion itself, according to http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... -brig.html
The Bttn HQ company could have had an AA platoon with Bren mounted or carried (I’m not clear on this) AAMG’s and 4 ATR’s. The other likely platoon to get into it in a scenario of MSTG is an armored infantry platoon, also of the HQ Co., with 3 sections of 3 Bren carriers, one of which had an ATR.
Also per the above source, in the infantry platoon HQ section, was 1x 2†mortar and 1x ATR.
As for the rifle’s specs, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_anti-tank_rifle, the rifle could pierce 23mm of 90 deg. plate at 100 yards and almost 19mm of 90 deg. plate at 500 yards. Based on this, I would give it an AP value of 2 and a probably a max range of 16 inches, maybe 20 but more likely 16.
So you may wish to try a modified “Inf. HQ ‘40†section for MSTG with the following:
Fire Power
AP:2
HE: 3 or 4 (whatever's in the book for an HQ inf unit)
Range
AP:16
HE: 20
Def: 6**
Move: use book value, I think its 3 or 4, just can't remember.
Trans. Req.: 8
Sorry I don't have a cost for you but the calculator formula I have on my laptop is an early, incorrect version. I'll have to get home for that. But on a guess I'd bet its about a 12 cost. The equivalent unit above ( with an HE of 4) in MATG is 13 points.
My only concern with this unit is that there is only 1 ATR in the section. I’d personally like to see 2 or 3 to give it the AP capability, you may disagree. One way to handle this is to ‘group’ the ability at the company level by giving the company an “ATR section†with the above stats. This isn’t ‘real’ but it just depends on how you want to simulate the capability at this scale.
It looks to me like the Infantry Bttn of the BEF had some ATR’s scattered throughout the organization and didn’t concentrate them into specific sections. But assigning one section of them at the company level does ‘scatter them throughout the organization’ pretty well for gaming purposes. Maybe one per platoon does to. But maybe this many makes the force on the board too capable of dealing with tanks. Playtesting will tell you what is the best solution. I prefer 'grouping' to altering the abilities of the weapons to achieve the right balance.
Good Luck and let me know what you think and/or how you work it out. sharing makes us all stronger players and designers.
regards,
RedLeif
turns I got some time last night to do some online searching and wrote the following:
The author of the MSTG rules says something to the effect of ‘you may wish to ‘play with’ the anti tank capability of infantry stands’. So this is what I’ve come up with:
I’m no expert on the BEF or UK organizations or weapons so if I’m totally out in left field with this, well don’t say I didn’t warn you. It appears to me that the BEF infantry regiments had 3 battalions of infantry and up to 1 company of 9x 25mm French ATG’s, so I’m guessing there were 3 platoons of 3 guns each in that company.
But in the infantry battalion itself, according to http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... -brig.html
The Bttn HQ company could have had an AA platoon with Bren mounted or carried (I’m not clear on this) AAMG’s and 4 ATR’s. The other likely platoon to get into it in a scenario of MSTG is an armored infantry platoon, also of the HQ Co., with 3 sections of 3 Bren carriers, one of which had an ATR.
Also per the above source, in the infantry platoon HQ section, was 1x 2†mortar and 1x ATR.
As for the rifle’s specs, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_anti-tank_rifle, the rifle could pierce 23mm of 90 deg. plate at 100 yards and almost 19mm of 90 deg. plate at 500 yards. Based on this, I would give it an AP value of 2 and a probably a max range of 16 inches, maybe 20 but more likely 16.
So you may wish to try a modified “Inf. HQ ‘40†section for MSTG with the following:
Fire Power
AP:2
HE: 3 or 4 (whatever's in the book for an HQ inf unit)
Range
AP:16
HE: 20
Def: 6**
Move: use book value, I think its 3 or 4, just can't remember.
Trans. Req.: 8
Sorry I don't have a cost for you but the calculator formula I have on my laptop is an early, incorrect version. I'll have to get home for that. But on a guess I'd bet its about a 12 cost. The equivalent unit above ( with an HE of 4) in MATG is 13 points.
My only concern with this unit is that there is only 1 ATR in the section. I’d personally like to see 2 or 3 to give it the AP capability, you may disagree. One way to handle this is to ‘group’ the ability at the company level by giving the company an “ATR section†with the above stats. This isn’t ‘real’ but it just depends on how you want to simulate the capability at this scale.
It looks to me like the Infantry Bttn of the BEF had some ATR’s scattered throughout the organization and didn’t concentrate them into specific sections. But assigning one section of them at the company level does ‘scatter them throughout the organization’ pretty well for gaming purposes. Maybe one per platoon does to. But maybe this many makes the force on the board too capable of dealing with tanks. Playtesting will tell you what is the best solution. I prefer 'grouping' to altering the abilities of the weapons to achieve the right balance.
Good Luck and let me know what you think and/or how you work it out. sharing makes us all stronger players and designers.
regards,
RedLeif
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sultanbev
- E5
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:38 am
Yes, Boys ATR were 1 per infantry platoon, nominally in the PHQ, the 4 in the battalion AA platoon, and those in the battalion Carrier Platoon (another 3). The 4 in the battalion AA platoon are a bit odd allocation, and are probably issued out to whoever needed them, eg Bttn HQ, Bttn Pioneer Platoon.
Mark
Mark