TO&E for US M60/M60A2 organization.

[tomc300]

Subject says it all. I am looking for ROAD Div TO&E including the M60A2. If it is online then "my search-fu is bad."
Mostly I need to know if they were a separate company in the battalion or organized as a platoon in the line companies. Also, did the Sheridan and M60A2 serve together in the same Division.

[redleg]

If I’m not mistaken, Panzergator was an armor officer in a M60A2 battalion in Germany back in the day. He can probably give you some very detailed first-hand info.

I happened to look at some of this information recently though and here is what I think:

I have a scanned copy of FM 71-2 (Tank & Mech Infantry Battalion Task Force) from 1977, and while it does not list specific types of vehicles, my impression is that the tank battalions have the same kind of tank, so no mixing M60s and M551s at the battalion level.

While not an official reference, I have a copy of Strategy and Tactics magazine from 1978 that has various regimental and division org charts. According to this magazine a US armored division in 1977 has a couple hundred M60A1 tanks and a single battalion of M60A2 tanks. It also has 27 M551 tanks in the DivCav squadron. The chart for a US armored division in 1980 shows no M551s – all tanks are M60A3s, except or the single M60A2 battalion. I would be happy to send you what I have I you want.

[panzergator]

In 3rd Armored Division, M60A2s served in pure battalions, all M60A2s. 5 tanks per platoon, 3 platoons per company+ 2 in company hq (total 17) , 3 companies, plus 3 tanks in bn hq, for a total of 54 tanks in the battalion. There were 2 M60A2 battalions in 3AD, 1-32 AR in 3rd BDE and 3-33AR in 1st BDE. I cannot find any info on M60A2 units in 8th ID, which was the other division in V Corps. There were also 2 M60A2 battalions in 7th Corps, one in 3ID and 1 in 1st AD. The one in 1st AD was pure and I believe the tanks in 3ID were cross-attached to M60A1 units by company, but I have not seen anything definitive on that. That would have meant each of two M60A1 battalions would have traded an A1 company for an A2 company leaving 3 battalions each with 2 A1 companies and 1 A2 company.I have lost contact with a friend from 3ID who might have been able to tell me Being somewhat familiar, as an A2 platoon leader, with the special logistics challenges of the A2, and having BEEN a battalion maintenance officer, the 3ID organization must have been a nightmare for all three BMOs. Just the Prescribed Load List (repair parts carried) would have kept me up nights. It may have been an "on order" organization which was only activated for war.

Sheridans served in the divisional cavalry squadrons, which had a different mission than the tank battalions. Sheridans were also the major combat vehicle of the corps-level armored cavalry regiments. My battalion's General Defense Plan missions included "thickening" the 11th ACR's covering force mission which is to say we reinforced the 11th ACR while it delayed the Russkis so the divisions could get into position. That would mean coordinating the placement of our platoons or companies in critical locations throughout their battle area, with command and control depending on the situation at the time. Our tank units would have been mixed in the battle area with Sheridan units. Once the covering force mission was over, surviving units would have been consolidated to resume the battalion's mission within the division plan. 11th ACR was a Corps asset and Corps ran the covering force. Sheridans and M60A2s did not serve in the same units.

There were M60A2 battalions in Stateside units, but I did not serve at those posts (Fort Hood was one) and I am not familiar with how they were organized or what specific units had them.

Sheridan ACR SQUADRONS each had an M60A1 company as part of their organization. Divisional cavalry squadrons did not have a tank company.

Another of my missions was to go with my company in cross-attachment to a mech battalion in 2nd BDE. My platoon further cross-attached to a mech company (in return for which my parent company got a much platoon), forming a company team of a mech co hq, 2 mech platoons, and my tank platoon.

Let me know if you have more questions or need clarification.

pzgtr.

[panzergator]

Redleg, by 1980, Sheridans were replaced in both divisional and ACR squadrons. The organization of the cavalry platoons was changed as well. A2s soldiered on only thing until you hey could be replaced by A3s, not because it was desirable to keep them. It was an interesting time.

[tomc300]

Hey, Panzegator, thanks for the detailed reply. I actually knew Sheridans were Cavalry. My bad. What I meant was did Sheridans and M60A2s serve in the same Division at the same time. Oops. In other words, did 3ADs Cavalry sqdn have Sheridans when the A2 battalion was active? Between the two of you, my question was answered after all. Sorry for the confusion.
Redleg, is your info hardcopy or e-file? I ask because I am packing for a move. If hardcopy, I will send you my new address when things settle. If electronic, fire away to twall911@gmail.com

My thanks to both of you.

[panzergator]

Yes, the divcav had Sheridans when the division had A2s. Divcav organization was different from the ACR. Divcav platoon had a ldr vehicle, two, 2 vehicle scout sections, and a 3-vehicle Sheridan plt while the ACR platoon had a ldr vehicle, a 2-vehicle scout section, and 2 3-vehicle Sheridan sections, which could be organized by 3s or 2s as required. Leaders and scouts were mounted in M114s, which were eventually replaced by M113s specifically by order of Creighton Abrams.

[redleg]

I have everything on digits. I'l shoot you an email today when I get to work. For some reason I can get more game stuff done at work than I can at home!

Panzergator, not on the M60 topic, but how many APCs did your battalion scout platoon have? I has glancing through some old FMs from the 70s ad 80s and one of them seems to indicate 8 x APCs for the scouts. I thought it was only 6, but I could be reading it wrong.

[panzergator]

Numbers changed during my time there. The week I arrived in my A2 unit, the scouts were finishing up their ARTEP at Hohenfels in 10 M114A1s, which they turned in upon return for 10 M113A1s. This changed, in 1977, I think, to 6 vehicles, 3 of which had pedestal-mounted TOWs, later TUA (Kevlar hoods over the TOWs). After I left in '78, it changed to 3 M113A1s and 3 M901s. Low density of TOWs in tank battalions meant difficulty with repair parts levels because there wasnt much demand history to support them. Six-vehicle scout platoons was standard for M3 scouts. When scouts went to HUMVEE, scout platoons went back up to 10 vehicles. HUMVEEs were never meant for that kind of mission. Probably a budget thing.

Likely the number of 8 stemmed from 10-vehicle scout platoons. One vehicle was the plt ldr's, one the plt sgt's, and 8 were in scout sections of 2 each.

[panzergator]

On a side note, as I recall, there were A FEW motor sergeants who were sad to see the M114 go. It had lousy ground clearance, so was useless cross-country, and the engine was not adequate to the task, so it tended to overheat and catch fire, BUT! ...it was a Chevy 283, a popular engine at the time, and the only difference between military and civilian version was one was red and the other blue. I have only been TOLD this, but apparently, there was MORE THAN ONE civilian vehicle with a new engine running around on army posts with engines that were delivered in a different color! Other than that, nobody was sorry to see the a** end of the M114 off to the depot for recycling.

[tomc300]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay. Been moving all day. Redleg, thanks for the files, only skimmed over them so far, but they look good. Panzergator, really appreciate the info, fills in a lot of gaps. As soon as things settle from the move, I plan to make a big purchase. With the rework of the M60A1 and the (finally!!) release of the A2 I can build my "Starship" organization. I just wish GHQ would release the M107 175mm so I could have the complete DivArty plus Corps level attachment.

[panzergator]

Until GHQ steps up, you can get the M107 from CinC. I sometimes blanche when I look at the cost of a tank battalion, even without the wheels - trucks n stuff. I am hoping GHQ will make GOERs, but not holding out MUCH hope. May have to go the Shapeways route.

My approach is to have the primary combat vehicles, the scouts, mortars, air defense, command tracks, ambulances, recovery vehicles, bridges, and some wheels, but not all. I have one tank and one mech bn that includes the wheels, too. For an H series TOE tank bn in Germany in the laye 70s, that's, if I remember, 226 tracked and wheeled vehicles.

[redleg]

Thanks for the info on the scout platoons! That's pretty interesting.

I recently decided to figure out how much a US mech infantry division (circa 2003) would cost if I started from scratch and did the entire division at 1-to-1 scale to include all of the wheels. I believe I was buying some power ball tickets when I decided to do this. I only finished the mech infantry battalion, but that battalion alone would cost $472.50. The good news is that there were a few left-over vehicles, so I could shave a pack or two off of the cost of each additional battalion!

[panzergator]

The good news is that you have some vehicles left over to begin your next division... You don't think you can STOP, do you?

One of my H series bns has the 10 M114s, one has the 10 M113s. The rest have 6-vehicle scout plts. My M60A3 J-series has the three M113s and 3 M901s. I have an M1A1 bn with 6 M3s and another with HUMVEEs. The M2 battalions have HUMVEE scout platoons as well. I prefer M3 scouts, but sent them to the second divisional cavalry squadron.

If I could convince GHQ to make ARSV, I would happily convert some scouts to those. Need an AT capabilitt, though.

[panzergator]

I should explain that the scout platoon equipment matches the TOE, period, and camo pattern used. M114s equip early 70s H series battalions that use the olive green or USAREUR tan, brown, green, and black. M113s/TOWs equip the MERDC units of the late 70s. The early 80s J series transition units have M113A2/M901s and are medium green. Full J series of the 80s and beyond are medium green or NATO pattern and have M3s or HUMVEE. Don't have any sand-colored units - personal prejudice.

[panzergator]

Recently checked my references which include Sabot Publications M60A2 Main Battle Tank, volumes 1 and 2. It lists M60A2 units in 3AD as 1-32AR and 3-33AR, 8ID(M) as 5-68AR, all A2 pure. 3ID(M) 1,2,3,4 bns, 64AR one company each in 1st and 4th bns with A1 hq sections and 2nd 3rd bns with 2 A2 companies and A2 hq sections. Lastly, 1AD's 1-37AR was A2 pure. I do not remember 5-68 with A2s and have not found any pics on the internet for that bn. A2s served under the H series TOE, so all had 5-tank platoons, 17-tank companies, three tank companies per bn (plus a CSC and HHC) and 3-tank bn hq section, for a total of 54 tanks.

Stateside, 2AD's 1-67AR was A2 pure. At Fort Knox, 2/6 Cav had a 17-tank A2 company.

There are some minor errors in the narrative in these two volumes, but mostly it jives with my limited experience (it doesn't mention trading in M73 7.62 coax for the M219 VERY soon after we drew our A2s. My company, A/1-32AR, was the second company in USAREUR to get A2s, our B Co having gone first. I understand different units may have different experiences.

Incidentally, I was very disappointed to see that these two volumes feature pics ONLY from 1-37AR, and none from any of the other units. There are a lot of really great pics, however, and I highly recommend them both for anybody interested in the A2. For modelers, I noticed that 1-37 did not apply the external phone box mod, which put the box on a platform ABOVE the fender bolted to the back deck. We applied this mod, along with top-loading air cleaner boxes the first and second day after drawing the tanks, so that should have been done by 1-37, too. The walk around photos show the A2 from the Jacques Littlefield collection. The bumper number format is incorrect and those shown indicate 3-32 Armor, which never had A2s. I served in both 1-32 and 3-32 during the A2 era. Those battalion motor pools were side by side in Friedberg. I can assure you 3-32 did not have A2s. During that time, it had M60A1 (RISE/AOS)

While I am doing corrections, one of those guys on YouTube talking about the A2 claimed the M85 cal50 was later replaced by the M2. Yes, for the M1. The M2 WOULD NOT FIT in the cupola of either M60A1 or M60A2. Neither did the A2 turret isolate crew. The driver was isolated as ever, but as an A2 tank commander, I could still put my hand on both the gunner's or the loader's shoulder. Also, the main gun breech did not intrude on the turret nearly as much as the 105's did in the A1. It was certainly handier for everyone to have his own hatch. .

There also was no difference in the designation of tanks with and without bore evacuators. Those with bore evacuators had the barrel vents welded closed. This was done in the midst of production as a correction. Those tanks were NOT designated M60A2E1 versus those with the later barrel. ALL were issued as M60A2. My tank had a bore evacuator, several others in my platoon did not. It was the same throughout the battalion.

After you order the A2, you will notice the cupola is WAY TOO BIG. GHQ's first model was much better proportioned both for cupola and gun barrel than this latest sculpt.

Last but not least, Sheridans and A2s served concurrently and both were taken out of service about the same time as the transition to the first M1, M60A3, M2, M113A2, and Div86/J series TOE began.