M60 Tanks

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Roger H
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by Roger H »

Redleg, I’m kinda surprised that they still used MERDC camo as late as 95. Seemed by then, everything that the Army had rolling was painted NATOflage or desert CARC , but then again there were still Guard units running around in jeeps, Gamma Goats and M880 Dodges as late as 95 .

redleg
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by redleg »

Things were mixed a lot as I recall. All of the tanks at the armories were green, but we still had some wheels that were some variation of desert MERDC. And then when I went through some of my old pictured from drills at Fort Irwin and Camp Roberts there were M30s and M113s in desert MERDC too. If you google pics from the LA Riots in 1992 you will see a mix of paint jobs as well.

While not entirely accurate, I decided to do 2-185 AR and 4-160 IN in desert MERDC, and then 3-185 AR gets the straight green treatment. In reality all three battalions had mixed paint jobs. And we wore BDUs just to make it a little more interesting!
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Roger H
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by Roger H »

It was always kind of interesting when they’d do a depot level swap out to replace stuff that had to go to Anniston . The 218th still had M48A5s in 87 and some of theirs got sold and shipped out to the Pakistanis that year . To meet their AT requirements, other units from across the country either loaned out or reassigned property over to 2/263 Armor, so at that summer AT , the SC guys drew M-48A5s with Desert MERDC and bumper numbers from 1/221 Armor and even a couple of them from 1/94 Armor from Minnesota with winter MERDC. That was rather strange seeing that on the Tank trails in the middle of July in South Georgia at Camp Swampy .

redleg
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by redleg »

That's pretty funny! I don't feel so bad about having my collection in mixed paint jobs anymore!

That's crazy that there were still M48s in 1985!
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panzergator
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by panzergator »

M48A5s were considered equivalent to M60A1s.
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redleg
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by redleg »

I didn't know that PG. I assumed all M60s were superior to the M48s.

I am still resisting the urge to get some M48s. I have enough projects going on as it is!

But wait.....were there ever any mixed M60 & M48 battalions? I have an M60A1 company that's lonely. Maybe an M48 company to keep it company?
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chrisswim
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by chrisswim »

PG, If those two, the M48A5 and the M60 were considered equivalent then what was the advantage of the M60 hull with the straight front fender?
Chris

Roger H
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by Roger H »

Speaking as an old fart from the mid 80s era Guard , I do t think any armor battalions who had mixed 48s and 60s . The closest I saw to that were HSeries battalions with M-60A1s or A3s having M48 AVLBs in their CSC . The reason they had to have M48A5s in the Guard was that we gutted our stateside war inventory of M60A1s to supply the Israelis for the Yom Kippur War without having to use the prepo stock in the European POMCUS sites . It was a fairly easy undertaking for Anniston to take war weary M48A3s that were shipped home from Vietnam , rehab the drive trains, power packs, swap the 90mm for the 105mm main gun and put in the Israeli Urdan cupola and there ……you have a tank comparable to the M60 and 60A1.
Once they started fielding the A3 with the ballistic computers , RISE, and the TTS, the 48A5 was pretty much obsolete . Certainly so when the Abrams were being fielded . What kept them around until about 1990 (about when the last of the 50th AD’s and the 218th’s retired ) was that there were enough M-60A3s being cascaded from the 4th ID, 8th ID, 1AD and others to re-equip the Guard formations and bring them up to speed . Of course, the force drawdown in Europe allowed the Army to
Re-shuffle and replace everything in the armor inventory for Regular and Guard with M-1s and M-1A1s by 1995.

Roger H
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by Roger H »

Speaking as an old fart from the mid 80s era Guard , I dont think were any armor battalions who had mixed 48s and 60s . The closest I saw to that were HSeries battalions with M-60A1s or A3s having M48 AVLBs in their CSC . The reason they had to have M48A5s in the Guard was that we gutted our stateside war inventory of M60A1s to supply the Israelis for the Yom Kippur War without having to use the prepo stock in the European POMCUS sites . It was a fairly easy undertaking for Anniston to take war weary M48A3s that were shipped home from Vietnam , rehab the drive trains, power packs, swap the 90mm for the 105mm main gun and put in the Israeli Urdan cupola and there ……you have a tank comparable to the M60 and 60A1.
Once they started fielding the A3 with the ballistic computers , RISE, and the TTS, the 48A5 was pretty much obsolete . Certainly so when the Abrams were being fielded . What kept them around until about 1990 (about when the last of the 50th AD’s and the 218th’s retired ) was that there were enough M-60A3s being cascaded from the 4th ID, 8th ID, 1AD as they NETTed up to the M1A1 and they could rehab and re-equip the Guard formations and bring them up to speed . Of course, the force drawdown in Europe allowed the Army to Re-shuffle and replace everything in the armor inventory for Regular and Guard with M-1s and M-1A1s by 1995. Amazing how the Pakis, the Thais, Moroccans, Turks, the Chi Nats, and the Brazilians got lots of 48A5s and 60A3s into their inventories in that time while the 60s and 60A1s became fishing reefs off the coasts of New Jersey, SC and Fla .

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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by panzergator »

The hull shape of the M60 has to do with the initial design period when the Army was interested in modifying the M48 hull to make it lighter and incorporate a new armor called silaceous core armor. Flat plates streamined the design, manufacture, weight and made easier the use of the silaceous core armor. The M48 hull actually is better ballistically and is heavier than the M60 hull, at least in their original forms.

The first M60s were issued to units in December, 1960.

The M60A1 turret is ballistically superior to the round turret. The gun is 5 inches forward of where it is in the round turret, giving extra room in a space where every square inch matters.

Regardless of equivalent ratings, I don't believe the Army would mix tank types in units unless under exigent circumstances, as it did in WWII. Of course, for convenience, you can group different types however you like, considering it temporary until you can bring the different types up to strength. That's what I do. It complicates logistics, of course, but those lines must be established sooner or later.

Even in 1975, I saw M60s mixed in with M60A1s. The only place M48A5s served in the active Army was in Korea, where there were two battalions. My forces include an M48A5 battalion, which is assigned to my armor group. Historically, there was an armor group in Germany at the beginning of the Cold War. I believe it had three armor battalions and two infantry battalions. I don't remember whether they were leg or armored infantry.

Two factors influenced the composition of tank units in the Army in the 70s. The first was the cancellation of the MBT70 program and the second was the number of M60/M60A1s sent to the Israelis to make up losses in the Yom Kippur War. These forced adjustment in the turn-in/rebuild schedule and the continued modification of M60A1. It also necessitated the adoption of the M48A5 in limited service. It MAY have had something to do with the decision to field the M60A2, as well.

You can reasonably combine A2s and A1s, even in mixed platoons, altough I would do it by company.
Last edited by panzergator on Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
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panzergator
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by panzergator »

When you buy your M48A5s, buy the Magach 3 and trim off the .50 on the maiin gun.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.

Extra Crispy
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by Extra Crispy »

Thought I'd get in on the fun...

Image
Mark Severin
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panzergator
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by panzergator »

Roger,

My wife was stationed at Fort Jackson '86-'89. Pretty sure I visited an SCNG unit at a gunnery range there with M60A3s in desert MERDC. May have pics around somewhere.

PCSs to Ft. Riley in '90. KS NG had A3s in Forest Greeb, light green, black and sand.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
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"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
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redleg
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by redleg »

Good lookin tanks Mark!
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Extra Crispy
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Re: M60 Tanks

Post by Extra Crispy »

Just a base coat. Gonna work on my camo technique/colors...
Mark Severin
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