TOE INFO.

[panzergator]

For those of you interested, like me, in using GHQ to build TOE units... I have recently acquired "Infantry Reference Data for 1964 (arrived today) and "Armor Reference Data (Volume 1 of 2)" from 1968.

The Infantry book deals with the "E" series TOE, which was the final transition to ROAD from the Pentomic/ROCID organization.

The Armor Reference covers the 60s/Vietnam war "G" series.

I have been trying to get to the point where I could use my fast scanner to off these, as well as my H and J series reference MANUALS so I could offer them to those interested. I'll keep working and let you know. Meanwhile, over the next couple weeks I will post some summaries for mech and armor.

[redleg]

Thanks for doing this, PG! I've learned a lot about TO&Es on this forum already. I think it's really interesting, and even though I will probably never build anything earlier than a J series unit, it's still fascinating.

What would be really cool is a timeline of TO&Es. Like a general time frame for the major TO&E changes as a reference - so we would know which TO&E to look at for a specific scenario. I wonder who we could get to do that for us????

[panzergator]

That's the plan.

In general:

D series - 1955-1960 (Pentomic/ROCID)

E series - 1960 -1964

G series - 1965 - 1970 (Vietnam - lots of changes)

H series - 1970s

J series - 1980s

These aren't exact. That will come if I can determine them. One thing I can say is that the whole thing is very dynamic. ALWAYS CHANGING, with new TOEs being issued sometimes even before the last changeover was finished.

My intent is to have a battalion or two of each. The armored division didn't change as significantly as infantry and mech, so don't need to have so many examples there. Don't know if the funding will hold, of course, and I AM SEVENTY! I will stop at J and you young fellows can take it from there. I will use this thread.

[redleg]

That's great info PG! I'll see if I can find the info for TO&Es that came afterward.

[panzergator]

The replacement for FKSM Armor Reference Data 17-1-1 is FM 71-+8. There may be others.

[mike robel]

The current replacement for the ST's is actually MCOE SM 3-90, of which I have not been able to get a copy since 2016, but it is probably still accurate in the main.

[Brigade Commander]

Panzergator,
Any success on the J Series TO&E's? Thanks to you I have the H Series and I already have the L Series but where I need to be for modelling purposes is the J Series. I have over the last year tried to concentrate on finishing my heavy brigade and have close to full two Tank battalions. one Mech battalion (including dismounts), one DS M-109 battalion and the Combat Engineer company. I still think each brigade should have a full Engineer battalion.

Trying to decide how to go forward with the GS M-110 / M-270 battalion (other than the already modeled guns / launchers) plus the Forward Support battalion. I have been looking at where they arrived at in the L Series and where they were in the H Series to direct purchases and keep painting until the J Series is found and I can find out how well, or not, I guessed. With the wealth of information you provided us all with providing the H Series it has got me thinking about once done with the J Series going back and doing it all again under the H Series. Enough different equipment the work will look completely new.

For the Transportation company in the FSB I found two different sources of detailed data on the M969A1 fuel trailer and worked with an artist(?) on Shapeways to put one out in 1:285. He already had tractors along with cargo trailers / containers and, if I remember correctly four, equipment transporter series models so agreed to get it out there as well. One of his models are the equipment transporters for my engineers and other models of his are the tractor-trailers for Class V & Class III transportation in the FSB. The Medical company has all of the models out there, just need what and how many, and the same for the Maintenance company. Found someone on Shapeways that appears to have all of the different types of workshop and storage trailers to add to all of the GHQ vehicles. Again need the what and how many, to feel I have completed them correctly.

Desperately wish GHQ made the tractor-trailers needed. I was reluctant to go the Shapeways route (well anything internet) and after trying it, and I should not complain because one of their artists did go out of his way and design one of the trailers I needed, found the models are too light and brittle for me. I will still order them to complete units until GHQ produces ones of their own. I need that solid metal feel to vehicles this small. Keeps them from blowing away if any of the cats meow too loudly!

[panzergator]

I have an early version of of J. Gimme a little time to put something together.

[Brigade Commander]

Thank you! I have been a bit surprised that no one has placed all of the TO&E series online in one place already. I would imagine there would be a large audience out here for them. But, maybe I am just spoiled by the quality of this forum.

After searching online over the last couple of years looking for where I should be going with building the units I began to think it was an impossible task. There were days when I could not even begin to fathom the responses I received from my searches. Some days it was truly disheartening. I must admit though I am not the world's best at online searches. At least so evidence shows.

I actually thought about inquiring about them from the Center for Military History over in Carlisle PA about two years ago but after reading over the why's, wherefor's and addendums on the site at that time I was relatively sure it was not going to happen. Wish I had at the time. It would have been interesting to see what, if any, response I received.

Again thank you. I know your time is valuable.

[Brigade Commander]

That's the plan.

In general:

D series - 1955-1960 (Pentomic/ROCID)

E series - 1960 -1964

G series - 1965 - 1970 (Vietnam - lots of changes)

H series - 1970s

J series - 1980s

These aren't exact. That will come if I can determine them. One thing I can say is that the whole thing is very dynamic. ALWAYS CHANGING, with new TOEs being issued sometimes even before the last changeover was finished.

My intent is to have a battalion or two of each. The armored division didn't change as significantly as infantry and mech, so don't need to have so many examples there. Don't know if the funding will hold, of course, and I AM SEVENTY! I will stop at J and you young fellows can take it from there. I will use this thread.

As I am working on the J Series and I have close to a full L Series I am curious: Was there a K Series? More for a historical perspective about how the J Series evolved into the L Series. Was there an intermediate step of a K Series. Might be interesting to see how much, or little, and which units changed.

*****(Edit) The AoE is the L Series apparently. Just found that tie-in.*****

[panzergator]

I just happened across a '64 Infantry Reference Data and a '68 Armor Reference Data while searching and bought 'em. I was issued the '79 ARD in my advanced course. Other info I glean from FMs. For real accuracy, you need an actual unit's MTOE with changes for a specific year. On Groups.io, as referenced by Chris, there is, apparently, extensive information, but I have not looked at it, although I am a member. I really prefer the reference data books.

Apparently, the Army went from J to Army of Excellence (I hate those fad names, and "excellence" is such an I'll I defined term), then to L. I don't know. Mike Ribel can probably tell us.

My '79 Armor Reference Data in 2 volumes is in a 2 1/2' 3-ring binder and I have misplaced it somewhere, which is very frustrating . Both my mobility and vision are inhibited at the moment, so searching is difficult. But I do have the '81 ARD with the initial J series - think divisional cab with ground troops of 19 M3s each.

You might have better luck writing the Patton Museum or the new armor museum at Banning. I do not have current addresses or phone numbers. Moving things from Knox to Banning screwed EVERYTHING!

[mike robel]

I have FKSMs from 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, @ 2011 which somehow seem to have TOEs with L, G, and R in them.
Then I have MCOEs from 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 (an R), & 2016 (which seems to have a K).

The early one is in 4 volumes for Non-Divisional units, LCD Division, LID CAV SQDN, and Ground CAV Troop, FXXI Armor Division, and 2nd Cavalry Regiment. Most others are for BCTs of various types, but there is one covering the Modular Support Brigades (NOT BCTS, but limited to FA BDES, AVN BDE, Battlefield Surveillance brigades, Maneuver Enhancement Brigade, & Sustainment Brigade. 2011 covers BCTs and DIV and Corps Headquarters. 2008 has the last one covering an Armored Cavalry Regiment.

The other ones mostly just cover the BCTs sometimes in one volume and sometimes in seperate volumes.

Mine stop in 2016. I think they are still produced, but since I am retired and have lost many of my contacts, I have not been able to get one, even though all are marked Public Release, Distribution unlimited. Queries sent to the people named in the document return no answer.

If you want a copy, PM me and I'll send them to you. I'd post them here, but I can't figure out how to post a picture successfully, much less a document.

[Brigade Commander]

I found an ARMY Force Management System website with a Force Design section which states the documents include: TDAs, TOEs, MTOEs, CTAs and JTAs, among other useful resources.

I assume those that served will have any idea what CTAs and JTAs are. Of course, it must be too much of a good thing because my browser had a seizure so not sure what that was all about. Maybe it will provide a lead to someone / something else to contact for any and all TOEs I can get away with asking for. I will let you know.