USN25 Selfridge Class - Which Porter Class Ships?

[ww2navyguy]

GHQ's Selfridge Class model USN25 is a modified Porter Class destroyer. But which ships in the Porter class were modified like this model?

I remember hearing that this modified version works for USS Selfridge and USS Phelps, but were others in this class also modified this way?

Thanks for any help.

[cinctim]

Hello,
Per my copy of Silverstone's U.S. Warships of World War II, (page 114), as well as United States Naval Vessels, {The Official United States Navy
Reference Manual , Prepared by the Division of Naval Intelligence, 1 September 1945}, (pages 103 &104), all of the remaining ships of the class, less
the Porter herself, (USN22), which was lost 26/10/42, were all converted to the design of the Selfridge model, (USN25), by the end of the war.

That would include DD.357 Selfridge DD.358 McDougal DD.359 Winslow
DD.360 Phelps DD.361, Clark DD.362, Moffett
DD.363 Balch
with 5, 5"/38 guns in two twin & one single, one Quad 40mm mount, two Twin 40mm mounts, six Single 20mm's and two Quad TT sets, (although per
the DNI book, the Phelps had her TT removed, but doesn't say when), plus these 5"er's were the standard dual purpose mounts, whereas the original
gunhouses on the Porter class as designed, were not built for that dual purpose capability. Other may have more info than what I found, however,
since all of the remaining ships survived the war, I would hazard a guess that there were not may other changes made. HTH.

[cinctim]

Addendum, I should have looked at the books/pictures a bit closer:
- In the DNI book on page 104, there is a picture of the McDougal, that has a different layout of the 5"/38's,..most pictures I've seen of the class,
has a twin mount fore & aft, with a single gun mount in X position, (as designed by GHQ), but this picture shows both twin mounts fore, A & B
positions, with the single gun mount in Y{?}, position aft.

- In Silverstone's, on page 119, there is a picture of the Phelps, dated Feb. 1943, that shows her with 3 of the twin 5"/38 original gun mounts, A, B & Y
positions, and still carrying both sets of Quad TT's. but on pages 102 & 117, both show the Selfridge with the "standard" layout, one twin 5"/38 at A &
Y positions and the single mount at the X position. So there could be a number of other variations, depending on exactly when their alterations were
made.

[Brigade Commander]

As far as I have gotten so far all eight had their eight 5"/51 caliber single purpose dual mount guns replaced by five 5"/38 caliber dual purpose guns early in the war. All except, so far Phelps, had their Number One 5" and old Number Four 5" replaced by dual 5"/38 caliber mounts and old Number Three 5" replaced by a single 5" mount. Number Two 5" mount became Number One 40mm mount.

Phelps seems to be the exception where the Number One and Number Two 5" are both dual mounts forward and the Number Three 5" is a single mount in place of the old Number Four dual mount. The old Number Three dual mount position is replaced by a 40mm quad mount but I am not sure what mount number it would be. Cannot tell from the photo how the 40mm mounts are for sure. I will look through some more photos for the exact layout.

Additionally, though still looking at photos to confirm, DD-357 Selfridge, DD-359 Winslow and DD-360 Phelps were supposed to have had all of their torpedoes removed along with half their K-guns and depth charge racks. That would not be atypical considering even some of the Fletchers had that conversion done to add the maximum number of quad 40mm's and extra 20mm's in the face of the kamikaze attacks the destroyers were suffering through.

With all of the different variations on the upgrading reminds one of the old adage: "Hey, there's a war on!"

[ww2navyguy]

Thanks Cinctim and Brigade Commander for the replies. I had a suspicion that almost all of the Porter class ships were modified similar to the GHQ USN25 Selfridge configuration , but was having difficulties confirming it.

Thanks again for the help!

[ww2navyguy]

I've been continuing to search for photo evidence online of the Porter class destroyers that were modified to look like GHQ model of USN25 Selfridge and could only find a few. I found photos of DD357 Selfridge, DD359 Winslow, and DD360 Phelps. All others (except DD356 Porter which was sunk in as built condition with 8 x 5" armament) were in a modified version with 6 x 5" armament with third 5" turret or the X position turret removed for added 40mm AA armament modifications.

Boy, these mid-war modifications sure are difficult to verify...

[Brigade Commander]

Boy, these mid-war modifications sure are difficult to verify...

And then I especially enjoy it when, after studying a picture and trying to figure out why it does not match what is expected, you realize the hull number of the ship in the picture and the hull number mentioned in the caption do not match. Needless to say, I now start at: "Does the caption match the picture?" before I spend time studying. Gotta love the Internet.

[ww2navyguy]

Boy, these mid-war modifications sure are difficult to verify...

And then I especially enjoy it when, after studying a picture and trying to figure out why it does not match what is expected, you realize the hull number of the ship in the picture and the hull number mentioned in the caption do not match. Needless to say, I now start at: "Does the caption match the picture?" before I spend time studying. Gotta love the Internet.

So true! I am careful to look for ship number verification when looking at photos for evidence. When I was researching, I made sure to verify that the hull number was correct for that specific ship. If I could not verify the hull number on the picture, then I did not accept the photo as evidence for that ship.

Thanks for the clarification on that since you are 100 percent right about pictures on the internet being incorrectly referenced.

[michaelw43]

May I suggest the following online sources to help you guys in your research. For photos of US Navy ships: navsource(dot)org/archives/home(dot)html is the best I've found. Then click on destroyers and you will find them listed individually by hull number. At the bottom of each page you can find a link to DANFS, the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, a great text reference for individual ships. If the link is to DANFS is out of date you can go to: history(dot)navy(dot)mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs(dot)html. Then you have to drill down alphabetically from there.
Michael D. Waters

[ww2navyguy]

May I suggest the following online sources to help you guys in your research. For photos of US Navy ships: navsource(dot)org/archives/home(dot)html is the best I've found. Then click on destroyers and you will find them listed individually by hull number. At the bottom of each page you can find a link to DANFS, the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, a great text reference for individual ships. If the link is to DANFS is out of date you can go to: history(dot)navy(dot)mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs(dot)html. Then you have to drill down alphabetically from there.
Michael D. Waters

Thanks michaelw43 for the website links. As a matter of fact, I was on the navsource archives website to help with this search of online pictures for the Porter class ships.

[Donald M. Scheef]

Porter (DD 356)-class destroyer descriptions

To begin with, I want to correct an erroneous item that I held. Porter-class (and the later Somers-class) destroyers never carried 5”/51 guns. Their main armament was from the beginning the 5“/38. I was confused because these were in low-angle (Mk22) mounts, unlike almost all the other 5”/38 guns. The Mk22 mount had a maximum elevation of 35 degrees (compared to the 80 degree elevation of most other 5”/38 mounts) and had no provision for an anti-aircraft fuse setter. They can be distinguished visually from the later (dual purpose) Mk38 mount by their dimensions (the length appeared greater than the height and width) almost vertical face, rounded edges at the front and sides, and side doors that were often open in photographs. The Mk38 mounts looked squarish, had a sloped face, sharp edges at the front and sides and no side doors.

General characteristics as built (1935-1937):
Forecastle hull design.
Main armament: four twin 5”/38 guns in Mk22 mounts; #2 superfiring above #1 forward and #3 superfiring above #4 aft.
Two quadruple 21” torpedo tubes; one between the two funnels and the other after the second funnel, with reloads in boxes on either side of the second funnel and on either side of the aft deckhouse. The torpedo mounts were on pedestals so that the torpedoes were at the forecastle deck elevation rather than just above the main deck.
Anti-aircraft armament: two quadruple 1.1” autocannon mounts; one on a pedestal in front of the bridge superfiring over #2 5” mount and the other on the aft superstructure superfiring over the #3 5” mount.
Tall (3-level) bridge structure topped by a large, boxy Mk35 fire control station for the main armament. It had to be tall to provide vision over the three levels of armament in front of it.
Tripod mainmast with an observation/light platform topped by a pole mast.
Two round, slightly raked funnels (about equal heights or perhaps first funnel slightly taller) with plain tops.
Tripod main mast with torpedo fire control stations topped with a large searchlight platform and a pole mast.
Three-level aft deckhouse topped by another Mk 35 fire control station.
Two depth charge racks on the fantail.
I don’t know of any models in 1/2400 scale that exactly match this appearance, although this is not significant because all the ships were modified very early after completion.

Soon after completion, all the ships had a tall funnel cap added to the first funnel. Apparently, the tall forward superstructure tended to pull exhaust gases into the bridge area. In most of the ships, the funnel cap was spoon-shaped (as on GHQ’s USN22) but in at least one case (DD 538, McDougal) it was angled back. SNAFU Stores produces a pack of six Porter-class destroyers (in five different versions). One of these matches this appearance.

Even before the start of WWII, the Navy recognized that the Porters were overweight and top heavy. A number of modifications were made to reduce this problem. The following list of modifications includes the dates of the earliest photo with the modification and the latest photo without the modification:
• Torpedo reloads removed and bulwarks installed amidships: before July, 1941; after March, 1941.
• Mk35 director removed from aft superstructure: before July, 1941; after August, 19411.
• Aft superstructure reduced to a single level: before July, 1941; after October, 1941.
• Mk 35 director on bridge superstructure replaced with Mk 37 director: before July, 1941; after October, 1943.
• Main mast removed and fore mast converted from tripod to pole: before July, 1941; after May 1942.
• Mk38 mounts replace Mk22 mounts; bridge lowered; after March, 1944. Some units, specifically those units assigned to the Atlantic, retained Mk22 mounts through 1945.

Changes on a ship-by-ship basis (to the best of my ability) based on dated photos:

USS Porter, DD 356:
• 1936-08-27: Not yet completed. 5” gun mounts and torpedo tubes installed but no gun directors and no 1.1” gun mounts.
• 1939-04-19: Cap added to forward funnel.
• 1941-11-04: Radar antenna added on top of forward Mk35 director, single 20mm added to bridge wings and around second funnel, foremast changed from tripod to pole, TT reloads removed, amidships bulwarks added, mainmast removed, aft superstructure cut down to a one-level deckhouse, aft quad 1.1” gun mount now on deckhouse with three single 20mm guns. This is the configuration modeled in USN22 and is essentially the configuration in which the ship was lost 1942-10-26.

USS Selfridge, DD 357:
• 1937-10-26: As completed.
• 1938-04-12: Cap added to first funnel.
• 1943-10-06: (At the time of torpedo damage that destroyed everything forward of the bridge) Foremast changed from tripod to pole, torpedo reloads removed, amidships bulwarks added, mainmast removed, single 20mm guns added in bridge wings and around second funnel, aft Mk35 director replaced by 20mm mounts.
• 1944-04-08: (At end of major reconstruction) #1 and #4 Mk22 gun mounts replaced by Mk38 gun mounts, #2 Mk22 mount replaced with quad 40mm, lowered bridge with Mk37 gunfire director, funnels lowered, no funnel cap, aft superstructure cut down to one-level deckhouse, two twin 40mm mounts on deckhouse, #3 Mk22 mount replaced with single 5/38 in Mk30 mount. This is the configuration modeled in USN25.

USS McDougal, DD 358:
• 1937-09-13: As completed. Same appearance as 1937-10-26 Selfridge.
• 1941-08-10: Cap added to forward funnel.
• 1942-08-12: Forward 1.1” mount moved to after deckhouse, single 20mm added to bridge wings and around second funnel, foremast changed from tripod to pole, torpedo reloads removed, midships bulwarks added, mainmast removed, aft superstructure cut down to a single-level deckhouse, both quad 1.1” gun mounts mounted side-by-side on aft deckhouse.
• I can find no photos of McDougal with 40mm guns or with dual-purpose 5” mounts

USS Winslow, DD 359:
• 1942-11: (unclear) seems to be about the same as McDougal 1942-08-12.
• 1944-11: pole mainmast added with HFDF antenna (for anti-submarine work).
• 1945-05-02: (re-classified as AG 127) Mk38 mounts in #1 and #4 spots, quad 40mm in #2 spot, lowered bridge with Mk37 director, TT removed, tripod radar mast added between funnels, quad 40mm and new radar antenna on aft deckhouse.
• 194-08: Tripod radar mast removed, two twin 40mm on aft deckhouse, single 5”/38 in Mk30 gunhouse in #3 spot.

USS Phelps, DD 360:
• 1942-05: Foremast changed from tripod to pole, funnel cap on first funnel, torpedo reloads removed, midships bulwarks added, mainmast removed, Mk35 director removed from aft superstructure.
• 1942-11: Single 20mm guns added to bridge wings and sides of second funnel, radar antenna on top of forward gun director, aft superstructure cut down to singled-level deckhouse, two twin 40 mm on deckhouse, #3 5”/38 mount replaced by quad 40mm, two single 20mm guns added to fantail.
• 1942-12-11 and 1944-05-27: as above.
• 1944-11: About the same as Selfridge 1944-04-08 (USN25).
• 1948-08-09: Torpedo tubes removed, two twin 40mm replacing 20mm around second funnel.

USS Clark, DD 361:
• 1938-03: As completed except for cap added to first funnel.
• 1941-03: Pole mast removed from mainmast, after gun director removed.
• 1943-05-26: Single 20mm guns in bridge wings and around second funnel, radar antenna on Mk37 gun director, foremast changed from tripod to pole, torpedo reloads removed, midships bulwarks added, mainmast removed, aft superstructure cut down to single-level deckhouse, quad 40mm in place of #3 5”/38 mount. (There is still a gun mount in the pedestal in front of the bridge. I cannot tell if this is the old 1.1” mount or a twin 40mm. There also seem to be two twin 40 mm on the aft deckhouse, but this is also uncertain.)

USS Moffett, DD 362:
• 1942-10-28: (This photo is taken from directly ahead, so any details aft of the foremast are hidden. The appearance may be the same as in the 1943-01-15 photo.) Forward 1.1” guns removed, single 20mm added to bridge wings, radar antenna added to gun director, foremast changed from tripod to pole.
• 1943-01-15: Torpedo reloads removed, midships bulwarks added, single 20mm guns around second funnel, mainmast removed, aft superstructure cut down to single-level deckhouse, two twin 40mm on deckhouse.
• 1943-03: Same as above.
• 1944-06: Two twin 40mm added before bridge, #3 5”/38 mount replaced with quad 40mm.
• 1944-07: Pole mainmast added with HFDF antenna for anti-submarine work.
• 1944-09: Same as above

USS Balch, DD 363:
• 1936-09-26: On trials; Mk35 gun directors and quad 1.1” guns not yet mounted.
• 1939-04: As completed except for cap added to first funnel.
• 1942-06-04: Foremast converted from tripod to pole, mainmast removed. (This is a low-quality profile so that no other details are visible.)
• 1943-08-30: Single 20mm guns added to bridge wings and around second funnel, radar antenna on gun director, torpedo reloads removed, midships bulwarks added, aft superstructure cut down to a single-level deckhouse, two twin 40mm on deckhouse, quad 40mm in place of #3 5”/38 mount.
• 1944-03-28: Same as above.

Versions I would like GHQ to produce:
• Approximately as built (with or without funnel cap). I would use this for “The Great Pacific War” scenarios.
• McDougal 1942-08-12: This seems to be a unique appearance, with two quad 1.1” mounts on the aft deckhouse.
• Phelps 1942-11 or Clark 1943-05-26: These seem to have a twin 40mm installed on the pedestal formerly occupied by the forward quad 1.1” mount.
• Moffett 1943-01-15: This seems to be a common early-to-mid war appearance, later than USN22 but earlier than USN25.

Don S.

[ww2navyguy]

Wow, great info on the Porter. Class destroyers! Thanks Don for the detailed write up.

So, it sounds like your photo research turned up two Porter class DDs in the configuration that GHQ USN25 Selfridge - Selfridge and Phelps during WW2. I did find one photo of Winslow in that configuration too. So, the photo research gives maximum of three ships or one GHQ kits worth of USN25 Selfridge.

Thank you everyone who responded to my post. I really appreciate the help.