F-35 How bad is the Jet?

[MechCommander]

Hey guys I have a good question here, just how bad is the F-35? given the constant and still growing list of problems with the Jet over the years?

[StarCruiser]

Hard to be completely sure. So much "evasion" on the subject but, some reports are out there:

Reasonably current:
https://www.defensenews.com/smr/hidden- ... s-in-half/

A bit older:
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06 ... -problems/

This is an "official" site so, YMMV:
https://www.f35.com/news

[7.62]

Mech, bit of a loaded question.
I think you have made your mind up and are now trying to justify it!

Is it any good?
If you are asking just for your Imagi-nation carrier fleet, remember the F-35B is the best (and only) stealthy, vertical take and landing aircraft in the World.
The Air Force and Navy variants are World class cutting edge technologies. They are very good and yes they all still have a long list of problems.
Now does that make it a bad aircraft?
This depends on so many other things I would not know how to start let alone how to give you a simple answer.

What started as a great idea in 1996 ish to make a one size fits all solution had turned by 2000 into a food fight in a pie shop,
Multiple Nations building the different parts for multiple versions to be shipped to different assembly lines. What could go wrong?
By 2010 the unit price was starting to push the envelop but all was well due to the economy of scale. The US alone would buy 2,450 with 1,000's more Worldwide sales. (LM share $68).
So here we are in 2020 and the program is rolling along just fine, for some (LM share $350 today).
After all the song and dance it is three different aircraft, F-35A, B and C.
Both the F-35A and the F-35C took on major compromises to accommodate the fixed design requirement of the B. This means the F-35B is the true winner in this whole program all be it with less payload and performance of the F-35A, C.
A lot of people have made and will continue to make a lot of money out of this program. It will go on for a long time to come.

The fact that the USAF is now buying more new F-15's is not making much news at the moment but it is noticed in many other small Nations.
If the US cuts that F-35 2,400 number to say 1,400 everything could change and not for the better!

I am not a fan of the F-35 and the whole boondoggle program it has become, I think it is not what Canada needs but there is a very, very good chance we will end up buying it (again lol).

[MechCommander]

Yes I kind already did made up my mind when I went for the older Harrier Jump Jet instead of the F-35B for my Carrier Fleet, and just like Cama said, We won't be getting the F-35. most likely we will be getting the Super Hornets.

[panzergator]

I would note that the US has been trying this one size fits all approach since the end of WWII, particularly in the McNamara years in the 60s. Remember the F111 A and B? This approach has failed every time. Part of the problem is some of the Air Force wants to fight things and the guys who can't fight things at least want to bomb things. NOBODY wants to be in ground support, but they don't want that money to go to the Army. This is written into public law, by the way. Once things settle out and somebody whose promotion depended on it retires, we MAY end up with an aircraft that can perform one or two types missions very well. Things like cracks in the gun housing are fixable. Flight characteristics might not be.

At this point, I'm not sure stealth is important. And buying used AV8s requiring more upkeep at the end of their service life is going to be expensive. If you want jump jets, the F35 is your only option. Otherwise, look at Typhoon, Gripen, or Rafale. Back in the 90s, there was an American-Russian exchange where we flew ours and they flew theirs, then they flew ours and they flew theirs. The F18 lost both ways. The ORIGINAL F18 was the loser in a flying between he YF16 and YF17, the YF17 eventually being reworked to become F18. Granted, there has been considerable reworking since, but... I always wondered if we were just trying to keep somebody in business.

The Bits bought Typhoon, if that's A reference. But they bought F35 for carrier work. They no doubt will modify. Buy some from them.

[redleg]

Is the F-35 really a bad aircraft? It seems like every time a new aircraft or major weapon system comes along there is a lot of doom and gloom around it. It may very well suck, but I wonder how much is legitimate concern and how much is hype. I have read several articles about how it is a much more "flyable" aircraft than the F-22 - meaning that the pilot interface and information management system is very user friendly and doesn't distract the pilot from killing stuff. I have no real world experience with them though.

[7.62]

At this point, I'm not sure stealth is important.

Stealth is very important but at the moment it comes at a very high cost in physical design.
That design you buy is what you will have to use for the next 30-40 years.
In the next decade, year or Month one line of software, a new chip or weapon system could render that advantage minimal.

The F-35 is an incredible aircraft and will be the backbone of many Air Forces for the foreseeable future.
However it may not be the way the future will pan out, make sure you have a plan B!

[MechCommander]

The problem with the F-35, redleg is that due to concurrency method the company used, essentially they send the F-35 jets out to the pilots early, BEFORE all the bugs and issues can be ironed out, in other words you have a jet fighter equivalent of a Ford Pinto.

[7.62]

The problem with the F-35, redleg is that due to concurrency method the company used, essentially they send the F-35 jets out to the pilots early, BEFORE all the bugs and issues can be ironed out, in other words you have a jet fighter equivalent of a Ford Pinto.

Mech, I see it more of a Tesla being built by British Leyland.

Most aircraft are set loose before all the bugs are ironed out.
The Harrier is one of my favorite all time aircraft designs and I consider it a great success.
Still huge leaps forward often come with a lot of pain and learning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_H ... ily_losses

It is not always easy to measure success.

[panzergator]

If you look into it, th will see the Barrier suffered in development pretty extensuvely, as wel.

[StarCruiser]

This does kind of bring up the point that ALL military hardware is inherently somewhat dangerous and that's always been the case.

Even go back 200+ years to the age of sail and note how many ships just...blew up! Someone left a candle burning unattended BOOM! Tanks - often death traps. Combat aircraft - engine failure in flight - CRUNCH!

Sometimes, the public just expects perfection right off the bat. Truth is, a lot of equipment is about as safe as a 1973 Ford Pinto:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Qj58o87sY

[Hoth_902]

Mech,


Keep in mind, leading up to the gulf war, the press slammed every major weapons system and put forth questions about combat effectiveness of the weapons systems.. we all know how that turned out. Military people would know better than I on that subject.

Saying the F-35 is like a for Pinto is like saying M1 is the same as a horse soldier. Its just insanity. They are not even comparable. Modern weapon systems, especially aircraft, are ever increasingly sophisticated. The curve on technology development is increasing exponentially. The only way things come out of the gates with little to know problems, is if you use off the shelf technology.. However, if you did that, then other nations start to gain ground on you. Is the F-35 a piece of crap, well that is hard to say today. However, Israel used them and did not have much complaint. You could argue that they would not make that public. That could be the case, but I bet we got valuable data on how they were used and any issues that arose from the mission. Did the US buy more F-15s, sure they did and why not. There is no other pier nations operating effective stealth fighters. The Vast amount of nations, non pier, are operating more conventional aircraft and the F-15 can easily take them out. Proven Kill ration better than any aircraft in history. Does that mean we sit on that fact and don't move forward, no!!!!

Consider this, every bit of bad press serves to have other nations miscalculate our capability. Even if they fixed some of the issues that are broadcasted to the press, they are not going to dispel those reports. It works to our favor. Even more important, this aircraft, even if its got problems still has the ability to kick asp and take names. More importantly is that this aircraft is not only interim aircraft, but 8n part a test bed for what comes next. The news is already reporting that a new stealth has been designed, built and tested. Make no mistake, you can bet there is something better right behind this one.

As for the harrier, it's not an air superiority fighter. But with the addition of the F-35, the marines do have a more capable aircraft for the ships.

That is just one guys opinion take it with a grain of salt.

[MechCommander]

Well using off the shelf tech is what the NCAF does best, maybe at some point in the 2070s we will acquire the F-35 once their service lives are ended else where. in the meantime im prepping to acquire the AV-8 Harriers (both in Micronauts and Micro armor scales) for the RCN, with some training from Spain who has also keeped their Harriers as well.

That is if the F-35 stays around for that long if the list of problems still persists.

[STS]

In the end, despite all the flaws, the F-35B is currently without competition, if you want a 20th-century, S/VTOL aircraft and if you don't want to buy in China or Russia.

As far as the F-35A/C go, you get what you pay for. A very complex, stealthy, fifth-gen fighter, with high operating costs, low payload, high interoperability, high availability (first aircraft delivered within 3 years) produced as cheap as possible, so that even small countries can afford it, with production devided up between all shareholders, and all the problems that brings. As with any complex piece of technology, first-adopters will always have to tackle bugs and problems, even if that means having to park them next to lightning conductors, having a cannon that doesn't shoot straight, or (in case of the first Dutch F-35), ground it for weeks, after accidentially spraying it with foam....

Even with the flaws, it seemed to be the favorite of Luftwaffe military leadership, when entering the bids for a successor of the Tornado. It ultimately failed for political reasons (not pissing off the French, more involvement of German industry), and there seemed to be quite a lot of disapointment after it was rejected. Germany will now most likely buy a mix of Superhornets, Growlers (nukes, electronic warfare) and more Typhoons, while continuuing to develop their own next gen fighter in cooperation with France instead.

For current operations, all those F-18s, F-15s, Typhoons, Saabs or even old F-16s will suffice. You can still bomb ISIS or escort civilian aircraft in F-4s. In potential conflicts with Russia, China or anyone else that has more recent air-defences, you'll probably be glad to have bought the F-35.

Well using off the shelf tech is what the NCAF does best, maybe at some point in the 2070s we will acquire the F-35 once their service lives are ended else where. in the meantime im prepping to acquire the AV-8 Harriers (both in Micronauts and Micro armor scales) for the RCN, with some training from Spain who has also keeped their Harriers as well.

That is if the F-35 stays around for that long if the list of problems still persists.

You might be able to buy a few Spanish Harriers then. Spain decided against upgrading to the F-35 for carrier operations, and will most likely start to phase out their Harriers starting ~2025, when the latest lifetime-expansion runs out. The maintenance and support cost of those things have gone through the roof in the past 10-15 years, similar to other cold-war era aircraft like the Tornado, with life-time expansion programs becoming more and more expensive. The fact of Spain deciding against the F-35, that they have been hard by the 2008 economic crisis and Corona, in addition to a big recent purchase of additional NH-90s (including the naval version), all points to them ceasing fixed-wing carrier operations in the next few years.