Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

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dnichols
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Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by dnichols »

It feels like this discussion needs it's own thread.

1) What size engagements would you envision playing at this scale? Platoon, company, battalion?

2) How big a battlefield would you envision modeling? 1km by 1km or larger?

3) For players of the GHQ Modern rules, what do you see as the fundamental differences in play from the current rules to a 1-1 scale?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by Hoth_902 »

My gaming group uses a table that is 7 feet by 12 feet. I think they model something like 2 miles by 3 miles and always play WWII at 1:1. They never play Modern at all. Best they ever played was Cold war 1:1. There preferred scale is 1/600 at 1:1. They typically Have 3 companies at best on the table. Don't get me wrong, I love WII as much as the next guy, but I also love Modern and cannot get them to play anything.
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by BurtWolf »

Platoon to company size. My table is 4x8... and I’m the only player.

redleg
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by redleg »

I think a 4x8 foot table is probably pretty reasonable for most gamers, so fighting a company on each side would be great. Any more than that and I thin it runs the risk of getting too crowded on the table and you lose the maneuvering aspect of the game.

It would be great, though, if the rules were fairly nimble, so that you could add more units to the game without slowing it down too much. So if someone has the space and they push 2 or 3 tables together to make a larger playing area, maybe go up to a battalion on each side, with each player controlling a company. That way more players would be involved and they wouldn't get bored waiting for their turn. You would need more beer though.

I don't know if you would have to have alternate or optional rules to increase the number of units while maintaining the game flow. Just a thought.
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dnichols
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by dnichols »

I use the term "Modern" but what I really feel like the focus should be on the Cold War, Germany, NATO vs. Warsaw Pact.

I think this would allow for a tighter focus on the unique aspects of that potential conflict.

There would be for example far more terrain, buildings etc. than in a desert setting for example. This would allow for maneuver and would account for engagements happening at ~1km.
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Hoth_902
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by Hoth_902 »

Dnichols,

I agree with your thoughts of Europe conflicts and the Terrain options. I would love to pay a game in both that time period and location. I have a bunch of Europe GHQ buildings I have to work on someday. Been carrying them around for several years now. Do you use 1/285th buildings or smaller ones to represent a town?

I would agree with RedLeg's assessment on a 4 x 8 board being good for a couple o companies. When we use the big board with only two or three companies to a side, we end up only using a little over half the board. they could easily throw in a couple of more companies and still have room to maneuver.
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madman
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

dnichols wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 3:24 am
It feels like this discussion needs it's own thread.

1) What size engagements would you envision playing at this scale? Platoon, company, battalion?

2) How big a battlefield would you envision modeling? 1km by 1km or larger?

3) For players of the GHQ Modern rules, what do you see as the fundamental differences in play from the current rules to a 1-1 scale?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject.
I agree. I have been out of the hobby for a couple decades but my teen son got me back in about 5 years ago. My background is WWII using Tractics which doesn't hold up well now. I played some "ultra modern" back in the day, which would now best be called cold war. I found ATGMs totally dominated and messed up the games so never played more than a couple games (we had no knowledge or information on how to handle them or deal with them, much like the Israelis back in '73) . I have been looking at recent rules since getting back into the hobby for both WWII and modern. Also, since we are talking four decades since getting into the hobby my tastes have changed. I am looking for rules which handle infantry as equals and not a poor second thought (almost none available) and now interested in different theatres. If we are talking an infantry centric game it can be played on a much smaller space, say a couple feet per side. The other aspect I am enjoying is friction, as in you may only control some of your forces and the primary ways which interest me are;

a) Your leader(s) are limited in how many troops they can activate during a turn
OR
b) You check your units to see who can activate for the turn (at that time)

This also involves each player alternating activating one unit or command structure at a time. Although not perfect it gives a good feel for "simultaneous" action. Or at least eliminates the all my guys go and what you have left can now react mentality of years past. A little more complex and needing some control but worth the effort (imho).


1. I would like to play from a couple platoons to a couple companies plus support elements as appropriate.

2. I have a ping pong table sitting on a pool table which gives me 5' x 9'. So that would be the maximum but I can see the edge 6" being either telescoped in scale or locating off board assets.

3. The rules I have used in the past few years is Hind & Seek, which is Soviet Afghan War period. I have also found five core company command interesting but haven't brought it to the table.

Since the lockdown I have been interested in skirmish as I can play solo and coop games with my son so I haven't spent much time looking at micro armour gaming much for the past year and a bit.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by Brigade Commander »

Thank you madman. Have much the same thoughts. Have not really gamed Microarmor but looked at a few rule sets and found they either did not even mention or barely mentioned anything other than tanks or sometimes ATGM's also or were not 1:1. Last time I checked Combined Arms, at some level, was the winning combination. First battalion I focused on was my Mech battalion since it seems they never get recognized. Even have dismount elements for each track. Do not tell panzergator though. He will be disappointed in me. :cry:
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rdenman62
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by rdenman62 »

I think a very good set of rules are Manoeuvre Group. They have what I think are comprehensive rules for infantry and mechanized units. This is an excerpt from the rule book:

“Welcome to a different approach to wargaming. Manoeuvre Group is designed to fight all arms actions in the period from 1941 to at least 2010, using forces up to a Company Group (Battle Group in US terminology). That is, up to 8 tanks, 1 or 2 platoons of supporting infantry and their supporting close reconnaissance, engineering and artillery assets, in an evening.
The game is primarily designed for 1/72, 15mm or 10mm troops but could be played at 6mm scale provided the overall size of the forces and battlefields are not increased; otherwise the playing time will be extended significantly. At this scale the battles are fought at close quarters, in relatively dense terrain, be it urban or rural, from England to Iraq and all points in between.
Manoeuvre Group’s emphasis is just that, the command of manoeuvre units to eliminate the enemy.”

I have the rules but have not played a game with them yet. But I believe these may have all what you are looking for.
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madman
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

Thank you rdenman62 for the suggestion. I will have to look into these. Just did a quick google and found them on wargames vault. Only potential downside is do you need to add a bunch of extra lists to make the game work? I am not impressed with rules which expect you to keep buying supplements to keep playing. Feels like 40k and FoW where they keep "updating" the rules and introducing new units to make the old obsolescent forcing you to buy ALL NEW AND COOL! Just bad vibes IMHO.

I do like the mechanics of H&S but it does need friction and kills are by being moraled to death. That and no way to rally morale off. Nothing is perfect!

Rdenman62, mind if I ask more in depth questions? I have been looking hard for rules to work with 6mm and getting disappointed with my results. Thank you.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by rdenman62 »

No you don’t have to buy supplements to play the game. The initial purchase has everything you need to play a game. There are supplements if you wish to purchase them but they’re not necessary for playing. Most of the “supplements “ are free anyways or minimal cost..I.e. $2-3...I purchased the rules and downloaded a couple supplements. I’ve read thru the rules a few times and they sound exactly what I’ve been looking for in a Wargame and may be for you also..
I’d be more than happy to answer any questions you may have..
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rdenman62
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by rdenman62 »

Just a follow up...I would say the only “drawback” to the Manouver Group rules is you’ll have to download and print if you want a hard copy. Otherwise it’s a pdf file if you don’t want the expense of printing.
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madman
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

rdenman62 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 8:41 pm
Just a follow up...I would say the only “drawback” to the Manouver Group rules is you’ll have to download and print if you want a hard copy. Otherwise it’s a pdf file if you don’t want the expense of printing.
Downloading and printing out is not a downside. Frankly it is becoming closer to the norm for the games I play. I will take you up on Q&As but today is good weather so lots of yard work.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by Begemot »

On the "Gallerie de la Begemot" thread (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6968&p=79686#p79686) I posted an AAR that used the old TacForce rule set. This is a 1 to 1 system that was published in the early '80s. Hoth posted a comment with links to updates that have been done to this rule set by Allen Rockwell. This may be of interest to you.


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dnichols
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by dnichols »

Begemot wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 12:04 am
On the "Gallerie de la Begemot" thread (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6968&p=79686#p79686) I posted an AAR that used the old TacForce rule set. This is a 1 to 1 system that was published in the early '80s. Hoth posted a comment with links to updates that have been done to this rule set by Allen Rockwell. This may be of interest to you.


Begemot
By an interesting coincidence, a friend gave me a near mint copy of the TacForce rules by GDW/GHQ a couple weeks ago, I was talking to him about the question of 1-1 Cold War play and he pulled off a shelf and gave them to me, reading thru them now.

I will take a look at your AAR, thank you for pointing me towards

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