Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

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Hoth_902
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by Hoth_902 »

I played the updated TacForce rules once. Thought it was a pretty good game and easy to learn for a first timer. I will say my group did not like it when a Bradley took out a tank from the side. They felt that was not possible. They way I see it, there are weak spots that could disable a tank, however unlikey they are to get hit.. but with the advent of modern sensors and the like, yo do not have to blow a tank up to take it out. I read somewhere that the Bradley's had little SABOT rounds that made the 25 mm better at armor Piercing.. So I thought that could help its chances. However, I have no experience or knowledge on real world stuff. Just the little i read.

I talked to my buddy that worked on IFV development, If I remember the conversation, I thought he said he thought it was possible. He further said that 40mm or better could knock out a tank. He did not tell me how or details.. but its what he said. I figured that was a side or rear hit in a vulnerable spot. Sorry I cannot be more specific than that. All hear say in the end, I guess.
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pmskaar
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by pmskaar »

Hoth, the Mein Panzer rules by ODGW had a critical hit rule. If you rolled a natural 1 on a 20 sided die, on the To Hit Table, there was a chance you got a critical hit. You then rolled again, and if you hit again, you got the benefit of the critical hit. What this did was to greatly increase your chance of killing the vehicle when you rolled on the Kill Table. If the caliber of gun was 57mm or below, you went up 5 levels on the Kill Table. If your gun was over 57mm, you went up 10 levels on the Kill Table.

I thought it was a great way to give vehicles with lesser armament a chance to knock out a vehicle that they may not affect otherwise.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by Hoth_902 »

pmskaar,

Yea, thanks for the info on Mein Panzer. I am under no delusions that a 25mm gun could destroy a tank.. but I feel, having no real basis for this other than my thoughts, that its possible to knock it out of action. Like I said, you could take out road wheels, Sensor ... etc etc and it is effectively out of action. I think I read a story in one of the gulf wars where some infantry or IFV disabled a challenger by knocking out its ability to see... meaning that its sensors and such were disabled. I will try and find that account. Bottom line, there is more than one way to skin a tank.. Not all of it means it blew up.

Again, I have not served, nor am I a really great technical research person.. its all gut feeling.
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madman
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

rdenman62 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:48 am
I think a very good set of rules are Manoeuvre Group. They have what I think are comprehensive rules for infantry and mechanized units. This is an excerpt from the rule book:

“Welcome to a different approach to wargaming. Manoeuvre Group is designed to fight all arms actions in the period from 1941 to at least 2010, using forces up to a Company Group (Battle Group in US terminology). That is, up to 8 tanks, 1 or 2 platoons of supporting infantry and their supporting close reconnaissance, engineering and artillery assets, in an evening.
The game is primarily designed for 1/72, 15mm or 10mm troops but could be played at 6mm scale provided the overall size of the forces and battlefields are not increased; otherwise the playing time will be extended significantly. At this scale the battles are fought at close quarters, in relatively dense terrain, be it urban or rural, from England to Iraq and all points in between.
Manoeuvre Group’s emphasis is just that, the command of manoeuvre units to eliminate the enemy.”

I have the rules but have not played a game with them yet. But I believe these may have all what you are looking for.
What I am looking for in 6mm rules. These ideas are ideal but some mechanisms which model the effects are suitable.

Infantry are either primary or not a poor afterthought. You could play entire games with just infantry very much like squad leader. I don't care for much of the squad leader mechanics but what is the procedure used? I would prefer a system like Conflict of Heroes where you make an attack roll and add your units effectiveness. Maybe a modifier for range. Compare that to the defender's defense value modified for terrain. If the attack exceeds the defense the defender is "damaged", whether that means draw and apply a damaged unit chit (reduce some characteristics) flip to a morale affected side or whatever mechanism for a "partially ineffective" unit the game uses. If you roll sufficiently higher than the needed roll the unit is removed from play. In the case of CoH which uses hexes like SL a die roll is made against each unit occupying the target hex and the results applied. Units within X distance can combine attacks and either combat factors are totaled or the highest factor plus one for every additional unit attacking is used.

For armour each attack (whether a single shot or a time period's worth of fire) roll to hit, then location. Some mechanism to compare armour and penetration is used to determine if the hit can have an effect. If so then again some mechanism covering effectiveness of the weapon (damage value) determines (or modifies a roll) to determine the effect of a penetrating hit. If a hit doesn't penetrate some mechanism to determine potential damage to either weaker points where a penetration may have occurred or some external damage may have occurred. Then a mechanism to determine the game effects of the damage, if any.

The ability to handle artillery, on board and off, and air attacks. Plus movement, troop loading or unloading, hull down, hidden movement and so on.

Very importantly a requirement to activate units. Whether that be by rolling to activate each unit or by rolling, or some other method to activate leaders who can then activate unit(s) under their command. Units which don't activate may still react to being shot at or perform some low level action or part of an action. Ideally if the unit is high enough quality they could still do more than a green or poor quality unit, which may do nothing more then go to ground.

Morale to be an integral part of the game. Ideally with leaders, on board or abstracted, to effect, reduce or recover from adverse morale results.

dnichols
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by dnichols »

Interesting and detailed write up you did Madmen, thank you.

Very useful input, thank you.
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madman
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

Thing is that is my "ideal". Don't know how close anything out there comes to it. I put it out as a anybody know of a set that does this?

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

dnichols and others

I have picked up a couple sets of rules lately, including Maneuver Group, but yet to read them let alone bring them to the table. I am curious about other's interest in my ramblings about "ideal" rules. If some of us are interested possibly developing our own rules or more likely finding a combination of ideas from different rules and incorporating them into a set we would be interested in.

whenimaginationfails
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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by whenimaginationfails »

madman wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 9:48 pm
dnichols and others

I have picked up a couple sets of rules lately, including Maneuver Group, but yet to read them let alone bring them to the table. I am curious about other's interest in my ramblings about "ideal" rules. If some of us are interested possibly developing our own rules or more likely finding a combination of ideas from different rules and incorporating them into a set we would be interested in.
What rules did you end up settling on, madman?

I recommend Fistful of TOWs 3, but Kampfgruppe Commander III and Crossfire are WW2 games that have some interesting mechanics.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by madman »

whenimaginationfails wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:17 am
What rules did you end up settling on, madman?

I recommend Fistful of TOWs 3, but Kampfgruppe Commander III and Crossfire are WW2 games that have some interesting mechanics.
I haven't settled on anything yet. I like five core company command (1st edition) and Ambush Alley. Both have pros and cons. Lately I have been playing some ASL and while that is not in I have also played some Squad Leader and will be considering it some more. Crossfire is interesting but the need for very dense terrain is a minus. Only played it a couple times but the feeling is it may be mechanically limited to a couple platoons to a company at best. Played Flames of War and it definitely is out. Rather go back to Tractics except I want infantry centric games with armour in support.

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Re: Modern Rules - 1-1 Scale Discussion

Post by whenimaginationfails »

madman wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:03 am
whenimaginationfails wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:17 am
What rules did you end up settling on, madman?

I recommend Fistful of TOWs 3, but Kampfgruppe Commander III and Crossfire are WW2 games that have some interesting mechanics.
I haven't settled on anything yet. I like five core company command (1st edition) and Ambush Alley. Both have pros and cons. Lately I have been playing some ASL and while that is not in I have also played some Squad Leader and will be considering it some more. Crossfire is interesting but the need for very dense terrain is a minus. Only played it a couple times but the feeling is it may be mechanically limited to a couple platoons to a company at best. Played Flames of War and it definitely is out. Rather go back to Tractics except I want infantry centric games with armour in support.
There is a free play version of Fistful of TOWs 3, if you wanted to try that. Crossfire is focused on infantry actions, but there are likely house rules that help for armor.

Of course GHQ has Micro Armor: The Game in WW2 and Modern varieties.

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