GHQ Ruleset vs The Other Guy's

[jb]

Ja,I got the probability of a "kill" by just about any weapon on any target,but I still wouldn't want to be the underdog in the match.
as for the die rolls for different angles I still believe it a waste of time. I've been there ,done that,don't like...It doesn't add realism,so if it is not exclusively rolled for you are not flying away from realism...

[jb]

http://axisdomain.0catch.com/Threat_main.html
You can download my rules for Modern Combat. Its called THREAT. It is different than most rules but it was designed for the U.S.Army. (But even a Marine can figure it out). HAHA. I am currently working on updateing it, but that takes a lower priority for me. Questions on it? just email me.

Hi Gary. I just checked out your rules.They seem to be very straight forward and easy to understand. I would really suggest them for beginners that want to get into 1 to 1 sacle modern day gaming.
They of course are also "lite" on stats for other Weapons systems i.e. "other nationalities" ,But the system is very good.
I really would like to suggest my own ,but they are only available if you come over to Wisconsin,or a Con in the area. They just aren't available on line ,or anywhere,right now.
One thing I like about your rules is that it goes from a % to hit ,then a % to kill.
I would consider changing the "automatic" kills,on the more thin armoured targets that are hit. Maybe a 5% or even less chance. There is always that chance of the round being manufactured on a Friday afternoon!
I also like the fact on the acqusition trable you give a negated factor for He with thermal sights. I didn't realise this fact until I played a game with current Army officer that pointed out the fact of using HE artillery as a screen against thermal imagery. (I got to maneuver a whole T-72 battalion through an open area under the noses of M3s and M1A1s. Even though I was under the wrath of US counter battery fire on my artillery,the mission was a success overall!).

[Mobius]

I also like the fact on the acqusition trable you give a negated factor for He with thermal sights..

Also themals can't see tracers.

[ShortRound70]

I have downloaded both GMills' & Mobius' rules. Both look good to me at first glance. I'll have to read them thoroughly, then try them both out. Straight forward and simple rules will work for me every time. Thanks GMills & Mobius for making them available. Will let you know how they work out.

[Mobius]

I have downloaded both GMills' & Mobius' rules. Both look good to me at first glance. I'll have to read them thoroughly, then try them both out. Straight forward and simple rules will work for me every time. Thanks GMills & Mobius for making them available. Will let you know how they work out.

At least the price is right.
One thing good thing with online rules is that they can be updated at will.
I've been tweaking a few things to put the different night sighting systems of the past 30 years into more depth. Also, the mased small arms effects on helos into the simulation as battlefield ** CENSORED ** becomes available.
As in http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t/ch-4.htm

[GMills]

Hi Gary. I just checked out your rules.They seem to be very straight forward and easy to understand. I would really suggest them for beginners that want to get into 1 to 1 sacle modern day gaming.
They of course are also "lite" on stats for other Weapons systems i.e. "other nationalities" ,But the system is very good.
I also like the fact on the acqusition trable you give a negated factor for He with thermal sights. I didn't realise this fact until I played a game with current Army officer that pointed out the fact of using HE artillery as a screen against thermal imagery. .[/quote]
Jb,
Once again you are correct about my rules. They were built in 1978 for WARSAW PACT fighting. However, the rules Do have utility for other countries weapons since they are weapon-based not vehicle-based. For instance the 120mm on the M1 is the same as the Leopard and soon the British tanks will upgrade to those. The 30mm can be used by any country's 30mm, same with 20mm. This doesn't mean for all of the possibilities just a lot of them. The KILL probability chart has armor CATEGORIES with examples of vehicles that fall into the category but not limited to the vehicles there. The website is owned by a friend of mine who might want to post your rules as well. He monitors this site and might contact you. As someone else said here,"the price is right!"

[groundlber]

Mobius brought up the Japanese wargame of the battle of Midway. The sound bite version of the story is true, but leaves up some important details. According to Peter Perla's book "The Art of Wargaming" the Japanese carriers were sunk by B-17's flying high altitude attacks. The chief umpire agreed that was a highly unlikely event, so refloated one of the carriers. More importantly, the chief umpire brought up the fact that the Japanese plan made no provision for scouting for the U.S. fleet north or east of Midway. The planners apparently ignored the question. The game brought up the right questions, but the Japanese wouldn't or didn't answer them.
The level of detail and complexity of a game should be appropriate to the level of the game. If the player is acting as a regimental or brigade commander, it's not his job to know how many grenades the third platoon of 'A' company has been issued. That's the company CO's job. The rules and the scenario should force the player to make the types of decisions a regimental or brigade commander would make. Conversely, a lower level scenario where the player is a company or platoon commander should focus on the problems a small unit commander would face.

[jb]

Jb,
Once again you are correct about my rules. They were built in 1978 for WARSAW PACT fighting. However, the rules Do have utility for other countries weapons since they are weapon-based not vehicle-based. For instance the 120mm on the M1 is the same as the Leopard and soon the British tanks will upgrade to those. The 30mm can be used by any country's 30mm, same with 20mm. This doesn't mean for all of the possibilities just a lot of them. The KILL probability chart has armor CATEGORIES with examples of vehicles that fall into the category but not limited to the vehicles there. The website is owned by a friend of mine who might want to post your rules as well. He monitors this site and might contact you. As someone else said here,"the price is right!"

I like the stats you have for the guns and stats for armour. I have limited access to a lot of that. I was trying to get Mobius's rules to run but I can't get them to read . I tried to email,PM,and ask him on the forum about how to make it read,but....no reply. I know that guys got most of all the knowledge about projectile penetrations and armour thickness,etc than just about anybody here.
I would also probabl;y recommend his game...only if I could read it
Another thing I like about your system that nobody seems to use is the 100%tile system,it just seems more logical,if not a little more accurate...

[jb]

According to Peter Perla's book "The Art of Wargaming" the Japanese carriers were sunk by B-17's flying high altitude attacks.

I once saw the cover of a National enquirer That stated"B-17 found on the moon",with a picture of a B-17 on the moon...I was wondering...na..couldn't be! Maybe..they are both of the same squadron!

[voltigeur]

I was trying to get Mobius's rules to run but I can't get them to read

Yeah I tried to down load Mobius's rules. We get in so many discussion I actually wanted to see what his end product looked like. Is it a PDF file?

I down Loaded Threat (GMills Rules) I like the charts. Didn't see a modifier for reactive armor. Also it seems to be only charts. Is there a more narrative version? I'd like to know how you administer the simu. moves.

[Mobius]

I was trying to get Mobius's rules to run but I can't get them to read

Yeah I tried to down load Mobius's rules. We get in so many discussion I actually wanted to see what his end product looked like. Is it a PDF file?
.

yes my rules are in all PDF format.
You have to load the pdf reader from Adobe. But the file is compressed in a zip file so you have to use winzip to uncompress it first.

I have Winzip 7.0 and Adobe 5.0 and I just downloaded and opened it and read it.
So as we used to say in the computer biz. It works for me.

[voltigeur]

That explains it. My path to Adobe is screwed up and I have to reinstall. Just haven't had time to sit at the computer and do it. Too many outdoor activities.

[GMills]

I down Loaded Threat (GMills Rules) I like the charts. Didn't see a modifier for reactive armor. Also it seems to be only charts. Is there a more narrative version? I'd like to know how you administer the simu. moves.

Here are some write ups about how to play THREAT
Hope it helps.
Gary Mills

THREAT
Method of Play:
Multiple shots per turn.
• The basic Turn length is 1 minute.
• During the move/Fire Phase, at the choice of the players, units can engage targets.
• Targets are spotted using Acquistion Table.

Example 1: An M1A1 is positioned in a wood line overlooking a road intersection. Range is 1500m. An enemy column comes down the road toward the M1A1, with three T72s. They use ½ turn of movement to arrive just short of the intersection. The M1A1 prepares to fire when they reach the intersection, the T72s can try to spot the M1A1 before he fires. If they succeed they can fire at any time they wish, which may be before they reach the intersection, which means they may fire first. I am assuming that the column is facing the M1A1 so the only the first T72 can fire during the first round. The other two can fire after they break formation, (they can use the spot of the first round to know where to look) they have ½ turn of movement.
So let us assume that the first T72 fires and misses because of range and moving. The M1A1 now knows it has been spotted and sees the T72s start to spread out. He can fire at any of them as they have exposed themselves to his sight. But let us assume he fires at the first T72 that shot at him. He is stationary with the target moving penalty negated because the T72 is coming towards him. He hits. Target is destroyed. 40 seconds of the Turn have been expended. He shifts targets to the left T72. 45 seconds expended. Both T72s and the M1A1 fire at the same time. Both T72s miss (range and moving); the M1A1 hits and kills the left T72 shifts to last T72. 50 seconds expended.
The right T72 fires first and misses again, and then the M1A1 fires and kills the last T72. 60 seconds expended and Turn ends.
The M1A1 fired at medium range for him but long range for the T72. He was stationary they were not. The M1A1 made the correct choices.

Example 2: Let’s keep the same scenario but change the defender to a M2A2. Let’s assume the lead T72 spots the M2A2 first as well. The T72 fires and the formation breaks left and right. Again, he misses (range and moving). The M2A2 was ready to fire so after being spotted and fired upon he launches a missile at the lead T72. The missile has a flight time to 1500m of let’s say about 6 seconds. This gives the T72 a chance to stop and fire again while the others charge ahead to close the gap. He fires and just misses. The Tow missile slams into him and kills him. 36 Seconds expended. The M2A2 changes targets. The T72s are under 1500m and closing, both fire but miss as they are moving way too fast but the act of firing has caused the TOW gunner to flinch (under armor) as he launched his last missile. This causes the missile to reduce its chance from 70 to 50 but it hits and kills the second T72. 46 seconds expended. The last T72 fires at 1200m and hits the M2A2 before the M2A2 can disengage. 51 seconds expended Turn ends.
If the T72 had missed the M2A2 could have disengaged.
The M2A2 waited too long to fire against too many targets. The first two engagements took too long and allowed the last T72 to close range.
Example 3: Same as Example 2, but with dismounted infantry deployed in support along the same tree line. The infantry have a Javelin.
Same as example 2 The M2A2 engages the first two T72s successfully but is out of Tows and the 25mm will not penetrate frontal armor of the T72 at 1200m. Its trying to leave, the Javelin team fires its supersonic missile at the T72 and vaporizes it before it can fire. The M2A2 survives. Turn ends.

Optional: You can use the actual number of shots per minute but sometimes this gets too cumbersome. An easier way to do this is to allow stationary units to fire 5 times/minute and moving units to fire 2 times/minute. Maybe you could give the M1A1 3 shots/ minute moving. All Missiles stay at 2/minute. Infantry burst fire 3/minute. This simplifies the firing while retaining the feel of combat.



INTRODUCTION
THREAT realistically simulates the deadly modern battlefield in miniature. Each miniature represents one vehicle or piece of equipment. Infantry are mounted on stands that represent a single combat effective unit. Combat and movement are simultaneous. A referee is recommended to direct the simulation's orderly flow and to resolve any combat results and line-of-sight problems.
ALSO REQUIRED FOR PLAY
Miniature vehicles and men
Measuring tapes or rulers
Decimal dice
Detailed miniature battlefield
Maps of the battlefield









BASICS
NUMBER OF PLAYERS ANY NUMBER
TIME SCALE 1 TURN = 1 minute REAL TIME
FIGURE SCALE 1 MODEL = 1 VEHICLE,
and 1 INFANTRY STAND = 1 FIRETEAM
GROUND SCALE 1 inch = 50 meters,
or 1 foot = 1 kilometer
TURN SEQUENCE 1.) MORALE RECOVERY PHASE
2.) ARTILLERY/AIR PHASE
3.) SIMULTANEOUS MOVE/FIRE PHASE
GAME MASTER/UMPIRE HIGHLY RECOMMENDED


METHOD OF PLAY
BEFORE PLAY:
First, a scenario must be chosen. This could be any of the following
meeting engagement (1:1)
hasty attack vs. hasty defense (3:1)
hasty attack vs. deliberate defense (3+: 1)
deliberate attack vs. deliberate defense (6+: 1)
delaying action (1:2+)
The ratios are merely indicators of approximately the balance of forces in the scenario.
Second, each side must plan their attack or defense. A map of the area to be played would be handy for the planning. Orders to any subordinates (if any) should be passed out and planned routes and timing should be discussed. The defender (if any) sets up first. If the gamemaster agrees, the defender may use hidden setup and not place the miniatures on the board until they move, fire or are spotted. This is not recommended for beginners.






HOW TO PLAY:
The following is an example of play using an attacker/defender scenario. Once the defender is ready the attacker starts to advance his lead units. While the attacker is moving, the defender can watch and wait until he is ready to fire. During the attackers movement, the defender should be trying to acquire enemy vehicles. To do so, use the ACQUISITION TABLE. Look at what the target is doing, in this case let's say the attacker is moving down the road in a BRDM-2 and you are defending with a dismounted TOWII team. The BRDM is considered OPEN MOVING if he has been in sight for MORE than 1/2 of the turn. Look at the VEHICLE SECTION under OPEN MOVING to see the base number you will need to see the BRDM. The range will be 2500M, OPEN MOVING at 2500m = 70%. Look at the Modifications to Acquisition, High power optics of the TOW add +20 to the base 70 needed for acquiring. Roll the percentage die and roll 90 or less to see OPEN MOVING targets at 2500M. Let's say you roll a 65. When the attacker comes within 2500M the defender can say at any time "stop, I want to fire" or "missile away." The attacker stops moving that BRDM and must figure how much movement has been used up to this point. For example, using 12" 1km the attacker moved 6" of a maximum 9" (or 500m of a possible 750m). Since a turn equals 1 minute, the attacker (BRDM) has moved 2/3 of his movement or 2/3 of a minute, which equals 40 seconds. This means the defender (TOWII) has 20 seconds of firing left in this turn. The Tow team decides to fire the missile. Look at the ATGM FLIGHT TIME-TO-TARGET at the bottom of page 2. At 2500m the TOWII takes 12 seconds to fly the distance. So only one missile can be fired during this turn. Look on page 1, DIRECT FIRE -NATO Percentage Chance to Hit. Look for TOWII at 2500m, 78% there are no modifiers that apply in this situation, so 78 or less is needed for a hit. Roll the die, get a 53, you hit! go to page 2 and look on the Percentage Chance to Kill table under TOWII and BRDM, K means KILL so BRDM dies a fiery death. If the cross-reference has a number then roll that number or less to kill.
Remember that movement and firing are simultaneous. So using the example above let's say the TOWII is fired, there is a back blast from the missile launch and the range is 2500m the launcher is dismounted so treat it like infantry. Now the BRDM has a chance to see the missile launcher before it fires and after it fires. If he can see it he has barely enough time to return fire, try to dodge into cover or pop smoke. Using the ACQUISITION TABLE the attacker looks on the CONCEALED line in the infantry section. At 2500m he has NO CHANCE to see the launcher before it fires. If you look at CONCEALED FIRING he has a 10% chance to see the back blast but not the crew, however, because he is moving that 10% is canceled out and again he cannot see the missile launch. So he does not see the missile and he dies a fiery death.
Sounds bad for the attacker but lets change the scenario a little. Let's add another BRDM that is stationary at 3000M over watching the other BRDM as it moves down the road. Neither can see the TOWII team hiding downrange in ambush so, both must wait for the missile to launch. After missile launch the target BRDM still cannot see the missile but the over watching BRDM has a chance, 10% for the back blast but no other special optics. If he rolls less than 10 he sees the missile and yells over the radio to his buddy "missile! pop smoke!" (He cannot range the infantry with his 12.7mm mg) this takes 5 seconds his buddy responds with smoke in 5 more seconds; the missile has 2 seconds until it hits. The BRDM turns while firing smoke and attempts to jink left. However, the TOWII has thermals and can see though the smoke and the turning maneuver reveals the flank of the target so the missile still has a 78% chance to hit (moving negates flank penalty). The BRDM dies a fiery death BUT his buddy calls for artillery on the launch site to revenge his friend. In a few minutes the TOW team will be on the receiving end.
In 3 minutes during the Artillery phase, rounds from a direct support battery of 130mm Guns will fire on the TOW team dug-in on the forest edge. Rounds land, roll to see if they are on target, look at the Miscellaneous Tables under Scatter Table roll the first die 9 or 10 means on target. Let's say you roll an 8 it will scatter to the northwest, roll another die to determine how far NW it will go let's say you roll 3 that's 150m NW measure and place cotton ball at that location. Call an adjust mission if you can see where the registration round landed. Fire for effect on the new location on the next Artillery phase/turn. Against dug-in infantry with overhead cover you need a 15 or less to kill but only 25 or less to suppress. While the artillery is firing the BRDM could try to maneuver toward the TOW team and engage it with direct fire when within range. If the TOW team tries to fire while under artillery fire it must try to acquire the BRDM through the dust and explosions of the shells. Thermals won't help besides they are delicate and they must be protected from shrapnel damage. So the TOW team takes a -50 from 78 (38) for seeing through the dust and debris and then another -20(18) for being an ATGM team under protection but being suppressed by fire. The firer is now moving towards them so a further -10 is taken (08). The chance to get a hit while under artillery fire is 8%! Sounds to me like that the TOW team is in trouble unless it has help. But that's another twist to this scenario.
Sounds complicated? Not really, you'll get used to it quickly. These were just a few examples to show you how movement and fire as well as rates of fire work. There are too many variations to fully explain here. This is why a game master is needed, to make the difficult calls based on the situation. But don't forget! Multiple shots per minute are possible! However, if you wait until the attacker has finished his move then only one shot/burst is possible due to the lack of remaining time. This means if you fire a missile with any flight time at all, it won't hit until the next turn.
The game normally starts with the Artillery/Air Phase. If there is no artillery or air attacks then proceed to the Move and Fire Phase. If air strikes are planned then place the miniatures on the board and declare "air on board". The opponent has the choice of engaging with any ADA assets that can see and range the aircraft. Helicopters are treated like ground units for movement and fire. The air attacks by fixed wing aircraft and artillery fire are considered to be ongoing for the full turn. Artillery may continue to fire longer if desired. Aircraft come and go in one minute. They can return if armament and fuel remain.
After the Artillery/Air Phase comes the Movement/Fire Phase. In this Phase all direct fire from tanks, infantry, artillery, and helicopters are executed. As in the example above, movement and fire are simultaneous.
If you choose to play with Morale then a third Phase called the Morale Phase is placed prior to the Artillery/Air Phase. Resolve all morale cases that occurred in the last turn

[Mobius]

Example 1: An M1A1 is positioned in a wood line overlooking a road intersection. Range is 1500m. An enemy column comes down the road toward the M1A1, with three T72s. They use ½ turn of movement to arrive just short of the intersection. The M1A1 prepares to fire when they reach the intersection, the T72s can try to spot the M1A1 before he fires. If they succeed they can fire at any time they wish, which may be before they reach the intersection,

Is there any advantage for the M1A1 waiting until the T-72s get to the road intersection? Could they fire as soon as the T-72s came into sight? That way the T-72 would not have an opportunity to fire first.

[GMills]

There is no specific advantage for the M1A1 to wait, except that he was ordered to watch the intersection and interdict any traffic through that area. He COULD have waited longer or acted earlier he was just sighted in on the intersection. My guidance as referee would be if he told me he was watching the intersection, he would not need to to roll on Acquistion Chart to acquire the T72s as they roll though the area. If he wanted to spot them 500m earlier then I would have him roll Acquistion to spot them. In any case, the T72s were beyond their normal range and had little chance to hit the M1A1 anyway.