M48(H) /CM11

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panzergator
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M48(H) /CM11

Post by panzergator »

Looking forward to this latest M48 version, which is going to be a bit different. This one should have an M60A3 hull, M48 turret, flat cdr's hatch, .50cal at the cdr's station, and 7.62mm at the loader's hatch. If all is correct, you may be able order its turrets to put on your M48A3 hulls to make correct M48A5s, but let's wait for pictures before we do that.
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Splod
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by Splod »

There's a couple of pics floating around of the M48(H)/CM11 with some boxy ERA across the turret, very different to the ERA blocks used on US models. I wouldn't be surprised if GHQ go with this look rather than the traditional clean turret to 'update' the model to fit along the rest of the 21st century range currently being released.

For an example of this in the existing range, look at the recent Type-59 release. While billed as a 'Type-59', the model is actually more reminiscent of a Type-59D with ERA and a 105mm gun.
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panzergator
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by panzergator »

Alas, you are probably right. It will save me money
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redleg
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by redleg »

Did the US Army ever organize M48s into 14-tank companies? Or were they just 17-tank companies?

Just asking because the M48A3 is now on special and I might be able to convince myself to pick up 3 packs for a company, but if I have to get 4 packs to make a 17-tank company it will be a harder sell.
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panzergator
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by panzergator »

The M48A3 served in Vietnam only, as far as I can find. It served in tank battalions and cavalry squadrons. These units were under the G and H series TOE, which called for 3 line companies of 17 tanks plus 3 headquarters tanks.
Cavalry platoons had an armor section of 3 tanks each. Some cavalry units replaced them with Sheridans. Armor/cavalry units in the States, S.Korea, and Germany were equipped with M60s and M60A1s. Can't speak for National Guard units. There WERE units still equipped with M48A2s initially in VN, but they were replaced with A3s as quickly as possible.

14-tank companies came along in 1980, with a transition period through M60A3s to M1s. No M48 series in US Army unless in some NG unit.

When M48A5 came out, the two active US battalions in S. Korea were equipped with them. The rest were sent to NG units. Almost all M48A5s were converted from A3s.
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redleg
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by redleg »

Thanks PG!
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panzergator
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by panzergator »

I should add that the M60 series became Standard A in 1960. Units going to Vietnam turned in M60s and A1s at home station and drew 48s. It had been planned to mount the M68 105mm on the M48A3, but budget, cost of the VN war intervened. The Army determined the 90mm was equal to the task in VN and that proved out. There weren't quite enough A3s available, so A2s were sustituted until the production line caught up. The A2s were reqlaced as quickly as possible because they were gassers - flammable and shorter range of operation. A1s and A2s were being converted to A3s.

M48A5s serving on active duty were organized under H series. The 48A5 was considered equivalent to their A1 counterparts. They were also somewhat sturdier.
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jwbolen
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by jwbolen »

Does anyone know why the ROC mated an old turret design with a newer hull ? Is there some technical, financial or political reason?
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by panzergator »

Apparently, they had a lot of M48A2s. The A2 had a fairly limited range. The turret could be upgraded to a much higher standard fairly easily. The hull was more complicated. There were a lot of surplus M60s available and the turret ring and components were compatible. the range of the M48A2 was a little over 120 miles while M60's was 300. The turret also could take the 105 gun.

Why it was decided to upgrade the 48 turrets rather than the M60 turrets, I don't know. Maybe timing. Perhaps they upgraded the turrets while they waited for the hulls, then mated them upon arrival. I'm still looking for info.
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panzergator
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Re: M48(H) /CM11

Post by panzergator »

More of the story...

In 1980, there was an agreement between the US and PRCHINA that restricted the kind of military aid that could be provided to Taiwan. The CM11 was developed by Taiwan's tank development agency and General Dynamics to conform with those limitations in 1988.

The M48A2and M48A3 turrets already possessed by Taiwan were upgraded with 105mm gun and the M1's fire control system. M60A3s were becoming surplus to US requirements, so the hulls were available and could be provided under the agreement. Evidently, the whole tank could not be provided.

The front slope of the M48 hull was actually considered better ballistically than the M60. The slab shape of the M60 front slope was necessitated by the intended use of silaceous-core armor, a feature rejected prior to production, although the front slope shape remained. However, accommodating the AVDS1790 and larger fuel tanks required extensive hull modification of the rear half of the M48A2. Either Taiwan couldn't do It or it was just easier, more practical, and allowed by the agreement to provide the M60A3 hulls.

The M48A3s which Taiwan had already had the larger fuel tanks and AVDS 1790 series diesel engines (that's the "D" in AVDS). They were also converted to the 105 gun and updated M1 fire control system. They are designated CM12.

Taiwan purchaseded the low-profile Urdan tank commander's cupola from Israel.

All very confusing and, I'm sure, only part of the story.

You can see the visual differences in the hulls by examining those of the M48, M48A5, and M60A3 made by GHQ. The GHQ M48A5 model incorrectly uses the M48A2 hull. Note the gentle curve of the hull top enclosing the top deck grill doors between the edge of the hull and the armored deck. Look at the M48A3 or the M60A3 and you will see a sharp angle in the top of the hull edge on either side of the armored deck. That made additional space for larger fuel tanks. Changing the engine to AVDS1790 plus the larger fuel tanks doubled the range. The Army used to prefer gasoline over diesel because it provided better torque. Diesel engine developments improved performance over the years, permitting the move to less flammable diesel, although the Army still preferred gasoline engines for its recovery vehicles until the very late 70s.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
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