Afghanistan

[Roger H]

After seeing the disaster yesterday,, I got to thinking…….

Did the ANA get any vehicles from us besides Ford pickups, lots and lots of Humvees, a few M-1117s and some KMaxx’s? Is everything else they have left is leftover tanks(T-55s, T-62s) BMPs, BTRs ?
Did any of the NATO allies slip them some of their retired stuff like they did for the Iraqis?

[STS]

As fair as I've read, since 2002, they only recieved former Russian equipment, directly from Russia (BMPs, BTR), the Ukraine or India (Hinds). I haven't heard of any NATO countries other than the US supplying them with heavy gear.

Luckily, it seems that large part of their operational fixed-wing aircraft (incl.Tucanos) made it into Uzbekistan.
https://www.businessinsider.com/hundred ... aft-2021-8

The whole thing feels completely surreal.

[Hoth_902]

I would agree, it does feel very surreal. However, I am not surprised. I've watched several in-bedded reports and the US troops would say the same thing. Rarely did all the Afghan troops, from a particular base show up for duty, every day, Supplies was low for the afghan troops, and the higher you got up the food chain, Commanders seemed unmotivated and little concern for the moral or coherence of there units they command. In still other documentaries, the higher you go up the more it was known that the motivations of command where less and less about the troops and stabilizing the country. I saw plenty of bravery on the part of the individual afghan troops, in these reports, but that did not extend upwards.

That is what I gleaned from the in-bedded reporters and documentaries.

[panzergator]

Did anybody here ever read a good, complete paragraph 2 (mission statement) for Afghanistan? I haven't.

[Roger H]

The average Afghani soldier in the ANA is not sworn to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Afghanistan . He became a soldier because that’s what he’s always done. He fought as a member of a tribe that as a family defended village, farm , homestead, crops etc under a tribal leader. If his home is in Jalalabad, he’d fight to the death to defend Jalalabad . Suddenly he’s in a nice new ANA uniform and got some training from the Americans or NATO, a new rifle and probably better food and creature comforts . But as a ANA soldier, he gets sent to Mazar-al- Sherif to fight as part of a unit there against some Taliban or Al Qaida forces there . Mazar -Al -Sherif might as well be the back side of Saturn . It’s not his home or his family, so why should he fight there . You won’t see the Afghani version of Lee Greenwood singing “I’m proud to be an Afghani” because the average Afghani is tribal and could care less about nationalistic values . That’s one of the reasons why the ANA quit and went home . That’s one reason why it’s been a tough process to create an autonomous ANA.

[Hoth_902]

Roger H,

I could not agree with you more. In some parts of the world, the people of some countries, have not moved past the tribal, clan, or religious loyalties. Even though they are part of a larger nation, they find it hard to see how the larger nation and its stability benefits them. It's one of the issues with how the US looks at things, in my humble opinion. Just because we feel loyalty to country comes before loyalty to clan, village or religion, does not mean that others do.

In my opinion, its kind of an evolutionary path of a culture. Its starts out to loyalty to family... then you become part of a tribe. The loyalty remains to that of a tribe and then sometimes splinters based on religion... Then a culture moves from tribe to a nation. How each culture gets to that point, is at there own speed. If they are not ready, you cannot force it.

[nashorn88]

Totally frustrating to me!
Didn’t we learn from Vietnam???
20 years and $1 billion waste it. I’m sorry that’s $1000 billion.
What idiot coined the term “nation building”
From what I understand we had no choice but to pull up because the agreements last made were Reduce troop levels and we pull out they will not attack US and allied forces.
Left us in a rock and a hard place. I don’t want to see any more of our troops getting killed.
Sorry for the rant and probably not the place for it.

I’m going to retreat back into my imagi-nation. My large GHQ order has arrived at my hobby shop and can’t wait to get it.

[panzergator]

I'm 71. I've seen this before. It's very sad.

[Splod]

Did the ANA get any vehicles from us besides Ford pickups, lots and lots of Humvees, a few M-1117s and some KMaxx’s? Is everything else they have left is leftover tanks(T-55s, T-62s) BMPs, BTRs ?
Did any of the NATO allies slip them some of their retired stuff like they did for the Iraqis?

The SIPRI trade register shows thousands of 'HMMWV Up-Armoured', a few hundred M-1117, 188 M113 variants and 222 MaxxPro supplied by the US since 2005. Prior to that it looks like all their equipment was provided by the Soviets between 1958 and 1990 (including gear left behind). There is always the possibility of supplies off the books however. The saving grace however is that we're not going to have insurgents in Afghanistan running rampant with Abrams and Bradleys.

[Roger H]

I’m not too concerned with the ChiComs getting ahold of a Humvee or an M1117 or some worn out ex- National Guard M113s . Yes, thank God we didn’t try to give the Afghanis 200 M-1A1s or some Strykers like we did the Iraqis . Sadly the Iranian Rev Guards may have gotten ahold of some of those back when the Iraqi 9th Armored Division cut and ran from ISIS near Tikrit in 2011. Fortunately, the average Afghan tank driver considers the T-62 and T-55 to be “advanced “ technology .
I wouldn’t be surprised if those Blackhawks we sold the Afghan Air Force aren’t and probably won’t be flying anytime soon .

[Roger H]

What amazes me is that 46 years after Saigon fell, the NVPA is still using some of the stuff the ARVN surrendered.
Charlie is still driving some of the ACAVs, actually flying a few of the Hueys and is still shooting some of the old 105 and 155 towed guns we left there . Many of the jeeps and deuce and a half’s the ARVN had are still running to this day .

[Hoth_902]

I think the hard part for the united states is thinking that everyone thinks like us. If we truly want to help, we have to learn about the people and there way of life. Then we have to work with in those parameters. Not everyone wants to live there life the way we do. I think that is the lesson that needs to be learned. That and nation building does not work. Giving a people tools to find there own path is the only way to do this. Its hardest way to go. Just one persons opinion that have no real experience with any of this.. Just sadness for our troops, the ANA, and the afghan people.

[STS]

What amazes me is that 46 years after Saigon fell, the NVPA is still using some of the stuff the ARVN surrendered.
Charlie is still driving some of the ACAVs, actually flying a few of the Hueys and is still shooting some of the old 105 and 155 towed guns we left there . Many of the jeeps and deuce and a half’s the ARVN had are still running to this day .

So is the US. A few plane spotters found out, that one of the CH-46 Sea Knights the State Department used to evacute embassy staff in Kabul a few days ago, took part in Operation Frequent Wind in 1975, flying from USS Hancock.

[Brigade Commander]

What amazes me is that 46 years after Saigon fell, the NVPA is still using some of the stuff the ARVN surrendered.
Charlie is still driving some of the ACAVs, actually flying a few of the Hueys and is still shooting some of the old 105 and 155 towed guns we left there . Many of the jeeps and deuce and a half’s the ARVN had are still running to this day .

So is the US. A few plane spotters found out, that one of the CH-46 Sea Knights the State Department used to evacute embassy staff in Kabul a few days ago, took part in Operation Frequent Wind in 1975, flying from USS Hancock.

She needs to go to the Smithsonian for retirement.

[Tanker Mike]

I think this story speaks volumes about trying to train an Afghanistan army.

"Glaspell recalled trying to teach an Afghan platoon in the eastern city of Gardez how to exit a CH-47 Chinook, a heavy-lift helicopter used to transport troops and supplies. They lacked an actual Chinook to practice on, so he lined up rows of folding chairs instead and instructed the Afghans how to safely disembark.

“We were working on that and it was going pretty good and all of a sudden this Afghan soldier walks up and he and one of the guys in the class started to get into an argument,” Glaspell said in an Army oral-history interview. A third Afghan soldier then picked up a folding chair and pounded the first guy over the head, he said.

“Well, then it was a brawl; it was on,” Glaspell added. He let the Afghans duke it out until they got tired. “My interpreter actually looked at me, shook his head and said, ‘This is why we’ll never be successful,’ and he walked away."