Armored Cav?

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jwbolen
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Armored Cav?

Post by jwbolen »

I have been unable to find out details on Nation Guard use of M551 Sheridans. Especially interested in 107th and 278th ACR. Looking to see if their use overlapped the active force having M1 Abrams. Would like to do a WWIII game with both
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Hoth_902
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by Hoth_902 »

I am betting panzergator would know. I want to say he built a cab unit with sheridans
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by panzergator »

I will defer to Mike Roble. I know that when Sheridans went, they went very quickly. They were replaced by M60A1s and A3s and cavalry units reoganized their platoons to 4-tank (M0 series) armor section and 4-track scout section. I was at Ft. Polk at the time, where even light was shipped in by truck and often arrived three months late. Nary a word about replacing our tired old A1 RISE tanks. And no info for equipment replacement in Europe. We, in the 5thID, would be boarding ships, both personnel and equipment, for the Baloon.

That said, the replacement of equipment took a lot of time. A Guard unit arriving in Germany to reinforce in 1980-81 might find itself falling in on Sheridans. Tank battalions in 3rd Infantry division had the earl M1s by 1981. I took the user testing of the M1 driver's thermal viewer over there to test. 64th Armor had M1s in time for REFORGER.

The 3rd ACR, at Ft. Bliss at the time and a REFORGER unit, still had M114s in 1980, according to some sources. You needn't be ENTIRELY accurate, given the variables. M60A2s were being withdrawm. According to Roble, he had M60A1s in the 80s down in the 1st ID (FWD) in 7th Corps.

Construct your scenario the way you want and have fun with it. Tell us how it came out.

Mike Roble was building a game to simulate the covering force battle for several different eras and equipment suites. I suggest you contact him. He commanded a troop and a company or two in Germany and the States. Much expertise in that brain of his, including troop lists.
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by Cav Dog »

As a potential what if, with a nod to historical events, you could have M1 Abrams on the same battlefield as M551 Sheridans but the roles would be reversed.

The 82nd Abn deployed to Desert Shield wth their M551 tank battalion and 3rd ACR was there with M1s in the ground cav troops and tank companies. 3rd ACR was under XVIII Airborne Corps so could have happened, especially if the Iraqis had tried to strike first.

It's plausible for the Abrams to be fighting the covering force battle and then turn it over to Sheridans in the main battle area. Or the Abrams moving to contact or busting the berm and then the Sheridans exploiting or linking up with airmobile operations in the Iraqi rear.

Lots of ways to get both on the battlefield in Desert Storm hypothetical scenarios, but in real life, 3rd ACR was screening the corps right flank with 24th Mech on our left and VIIth Imperial Corps on our right.

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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by Hoth_902 »

Always love when you guys impart some wisdom. Learn so much from what you share.
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mike robel
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by mike robel »

We had M551s when I arrived in January 1977 in the 11th ACR.
We traded our M551s for M60A1 in about 1978 and then got M60A3s in 1980.
When I got to the 1st ID from 1980-1984 we still had M60A1s.
In 1984-1987 I was in the 1st ID (Forward) (aka 3BDE 1ID) and we had M60A3 and in 84 we traded for IPM1s. We were supposed to get M1A1, but they weren't ready yet.

In 1990-1991, the only people to my knowledge with M551s were the 82nd Airborne.

During Desert Storm, the 3rd ACR screened the XVIII right flank and then maintained contact between the VII Corps and the 24th ID. The 82nd was out on the flank. I am not sure of the deployment of the 3rd ACR and the 82nd during Desert Shield prior to the arrival of VII Corps. I recommend Certain Victory by General Robert Scales for more information: https://www.amazon.com/Certain-Victory- ... 1574881361

In about 1995-96 I did a simulation exercise with the 278th ACR and they had M60A3s at the time.

Don't know about the 107th ACR.

jwbolen
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by jwbolen »

I was thinking central Europe in the 80s. With the Guard units arriving after the in place and reforger units had been worn down. I know it is my world, but want to use actual TO&E as a basis. So trying to find out how the Guard ACRs were organized when they had them and when did they get rid of them. From my little contact with them, what they actually had oftentimes differed from both active units and what they were supposed to have.
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by panzergator »

Apologies, but I can't help with ACR organization after '78. The transition to J series TOE started about then, as did major equipment changes as M60A3 and M1 started to reach units and M551, M60A2 were being withdrawn. ACR transition went through several iterations due to equipment changes.
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jwbolen
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by jwbolen »

It has been like trying to nail jello to the wall to find information on the active armored cav in the 80s and worse for the Guard units
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by redleg »

There is a document out there called ST17-1-1 Armor Reference Data that goes into some detail about unit organizations. There is one from 1982 that is in 3 volumes. Volume 3 is non-divisional units and it has some diagrams and info on the ACR from the early 80s and it does show Sheridans in the cav troops.

You should be able to find it on the internet, and if not I have a digital copy, though some of the pages are poorly scanned and unreadable. PM me your e-mail address if you want me to e-mail it to you.

Still not as good as the first hand knowledge that is on this forum, but it might be useful.
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by panzergator »

Well, here is some general info. In last half of 70s, the 11th and 2nd ACRs were under a USAREUR-modified TOE which called for platoons of 6 M551s, 2 M113A1 scouts, and a track-mounted 4.2" mortar M106A1. There were 3 platoons per troop, three troops per squadron, and three squadrons per regiment. There were also GSR tracks, each troop had a M577 and a command track, a maintenance track, and an M578 recovery vehicle. There was also a squadron headquarters troop with support units. Each squadron had a tank company of 17 M60A1s and a six-piece 155SP battery.

A divisional cav squadron platoon had 3 Sheridans, 5 M113 scouts. The squadron did not have a tank company or how battery.

Stateside, 3rd ACR differed from its European counterpart in having only 3 Sheridans, 5 M113 scouts, and the mortar in its platoons. GSRs at troop or squadron level. 3 platoons per troop, three troops per squadron, three squadrons per regiment. Also tank company and how battery in each squadron.

When the Sheridans were withdrawn and replaced by tanks, the platoon organization became an armor section of 4 M60 series tanks, a scout section of 4 M113s (maybe 5), and the mortar. Squadrons retained their tank companies and how batteries.

The transition to J series called for a divisional ground cavalry squadron of 2 troops assigned to the 4th (Aviation) brigade, each troop consisting of 3 platoons of 6 M3s each, plus an M3 in each troop hq.

The J series ACR troop consisted of two platoons of 4 M1s each and two platoons of 6 M3s each, with an M1 and M3 in trp hq. Again, three troops per squadron, three squadrons per regiment, with 14-tank company and 8-piece how battery in each sdn.

The divcav squadrons were plussed with a variety of combinations of a third troop and tanks for First Gulf and at some point after, all cav was standardized on the ACR troop organization. Don't know when, and Roble may have to correct some of the above.

Whether the NG regiments you are interested in were organized along any of these lines, I can only say they probably did NOT use the 6-Sheridan USAREUR platoon.

The tank/M113 platoon organization was associated with separate brigades during the H series era of the 70s, with the brigade having a troop, not a squadron, as is the ABCT practice.

I havent addressed aviation assets because I haven't gotten the books out for this.

What IS clear is that the Army has lost a very valuable, flexible and strong organization with the passing of the ACR.

I have ST 17-1-1s for '64, '74, '79, and '81. Info above is RECALLED from those references. Just quick and dirty.
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Roger H
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by Roger H »

Fellas,
I can tell you for certain that the 278th ACR never had Sheridans or M114s in their Cav troops at any time . The unit was still reorganizing from being a leg infantry brigade to heavy Cav in 1977 when most of the Sheridans were retired from the heavy Cav role . The primary vehicles in the 278th at that time were M-48A5 , M113 and the M-150 TOW carrier.
They stayed that way until about 1985 when they upgraded to the M 60A3 and ITV . They also got the FISTV around 1987 . They didn’t go over to M1A1 and Brads until sometime after ODS . Their basic equipment inventory and mob site was at Ft Stewart, Ga from 1978 to around 1996 ( when it changed to Camp Shelby )

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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by panzergator »

Nice to have some definitive information! So likely organization for a platoon was 4 tanks, 4 M113s, and a mortar.

The squadron tank company would also have been M48A5s and there would have been a 6-piece how battery.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by Roger H »

In case anyone is interested, I was there in 87 when the 278th ran their last AT at Ft Stewart with some pretty unique aircraft and organizations for their regimental aviation . Their 4th Squadron ( Air) had been provisionally activated but still had just the standard H series air Cav troop and a separate attack helicopter troop along with an aviation maintenance company . As late as 87, the air Cav troop had UH-1M gunships and OH-6A Scouts . The attack troop had the old S model cobras with OH-58A scouts .
Wonder how all those would have survived in a high threat environment?

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Re: Armored Cav?

Post by redleg »

I agree with Hoth - these discussions are fascinating and educational!

Does anyone know what the 278th ACR looks like today? I met some guys from the 278th ACR just in passing in Taji in 2005, but they weren't doing anything cavalry related. Do they still exist?
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