New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

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tomc300
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:07 am
Location: Knoxville, TN

New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by tomc300 »

If any of you guys have read the 2 most recent Armor Magazines you may have noticed interesting articles in each, The Winter 2022 edition contains an article on the army's new Armored Assault Company and the Winter/Spring 2022 issue offers us The Cube Division as an alternative to the current
Triangular organization. Thumbnail summaries of both: The Cube Division would have 2 Brigades composed of 2 Regiments each with 2 Maneuver Battalions. The Division is aimed at Armored Divisions over Mech Infantry and rather than simply plugging a 4th battalion into the current organization (and becoming unwieldy for a Bde HQ), the Cube division offers the addition of 2 Regiment HQs to handle the C&C of the Battalions leaving Brigade HQ to COMMAND THE BRIGADE, Interesting in my opinion. It will however reduce the size of an Armored Division by reducing the number of maneuver battalions from 9 to 8. The Armored Assault Company on the other hand sounds like a Nightmare that hasn't happened yet. A Mech Inf Company would be reduced from 3 maneuver platoons to 2 platoons which would actually be 2 Platoons under a single platoon umbrella. Let me explain, the new platoon would include 33 Infantry over the current 28, it would also include 6 Bradleys instead of the current 4. The sticky part is they would be separate platoons which operate jointly, e.g. The Bradley element would all be strictly Cavalry 19D, the dismounts would all be 11M (MOS resurrected after being eliminated in 2001). There would be an 11M Lt and platoon Sgt as well as a 19D Lt and platoon Sgt. The Company Commander would be an 11M while the XO would be 19D. To save my fingers and let you read for yourself I have included the URLs for both editions.

Winter 2022: https://www.benning.army.mil/Armor/eARM ... dition.pdf
and
Winter/Spring 2022: https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARM ... dition.pdf

Read it and lets discuss it. Good or bad? I think the Cube Division is good, while the Armored Assault Company gives me bad vibes.

panzergator
E5
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:44 am

Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by panzergator »

We went through this in WWII. These guys have their HUA. During WWII, we had 2 heavy armored divisions, the 2AD ad 3AD. Each had two regiments of 3 armor battalions, a regiment of 3 armored infantry battalions, and a divarty. They had both combat command hqs and regimental hqs. It was quickly discovered the regimental hqs were superfluous and they were eliminated. In practice, the division was always critically short of infantry.

The remaining armored divisions were light armored divisions - 3 battalions armor, 3 battalions armored infantry, 3 battalions arty. They were still woefully short infantry.

After the war, ** CENSORED ** indicated the combat commands were very satisfactory but the light division was too light. Reorganization led to first an eight-battalion division and eventually an eleven-battalion division, plus divarty. For the eleven-battalion armored division, there were 6 armor battalions and 5 mech battalions. Brigade hqs assumed the functions of the combat commands. The J series TOE changed the ratios, but essentially left the division as a toolbox full of tools to be allocated for different missions. It trained so that the mix could be changed as a situation or mission evolved. THEN came ABCTs.

Is anybody familiar with the move from the square division to the triangular division in WWI?

IMO, we can go to the new division, but you don't need the regimental hq. It is still superfluous. And we should have national guard roundout units to augment the division - 2 or 3 battalions to an active division.

Mike Roble and I have been talking about the mech platoon for years. It's too small. No matter the increased lethality of the individual soldier, you just need some numbers to be effective as a squad, and in combat, a squad is always going to be short. If you can't get more men in a vehicle, you have to have more vehicles in the squad and therefore, more in the platoon. I don't know the new MOSs, but don't get too fancy with them. Infantry jobs for the infantry platoon. Now, whoever cane up with "co-leaders should be taken out and shot. That violates Unity of Command on the first order.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.

panzergator
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:44 am

Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by panzergator »

The censored word was a n a ! i s i s.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.

EdMott
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:37 am

Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by EdMott »

Too many bored staff officers looking for something to do

Cav Dog
E5
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:12 am

Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by Cav Dog »

Well, you have to remember the old saying about change: "Nobody ever got a good OER by saying things were working when I got here so I left them the way they were..."
Tactics are the opinion of the senior officer present.

panzergator
E5
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:44 am

Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by panzergator »

Impending doom. This is the kind of crap you get ehen you move the Armor School to Fort Benning, let Armor guys hang around Infantry guys. My brothers were both Infantry and we tried always to keep at least one ocean between us.
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.

recon110
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:16 pm
Location: Rochester Hills Michigan

Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by recon110 »

So basically, as my 1-18 INF Scout platoon proved on Kelly Hill Ft Benning 94-96, scouts outshoot infantry during Bradley Gunnery Table VIII.
David Farrell

panzergator
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Re: New Army TO&Es in the testing phase

Post by panzergator »

Let's dig up Donn Starry and send him down to Benning to knock heads together and get the Armor School out of that godforsaken place. Move it to Hood or NTC, where there's maneuver room. If things have to be changed, bring back ACRs and send mech guys to the Armor School to be trained as Armored Infantry and leave the other guys to Benning. Get rid of the ABCT concept - divisions always tailored brigades for a mission and there it worked. Bring back a couple separate brigades like we used to have to act in stead of ABCTs. Stop effing around and just understand that our forces TRAIN to be FLEXIBLE abd ADAPT. J series was a good, strong, flexible organization adaptable to a variety of situations. Certainly, that's how I was trained by the Armor School.

CO-COMMANDERS?!!! God. DAMN THEM TO HELL for daring to think of it. Haven't these YAYhoos even attended Basic Officer's course yet? Played too many games, watched too many movies and tv shows.

Now, I'm gonna take the rest of the day to get myself untwisted. And KICK THOSE GUYS OUT OF ARMOR BRANCH!
All blessings flow from a good mission statement.
Pogo was right. So was Ike.
"A Gentleman is a man who is only rude intentionally." (Churchill)
Give credit. Take responsibility.

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