What GHQ paint for WWII German

[6thompsons]

What GHQ paint do I use for early WWII German vehicles (panzer gray) and late WWII German vehicles (panzer yellow)?
Thanks,
Charlie T.
KC (but in Kuwait right now)

[Azure]

While people are suggesting paint colors, what is a good match for Soviet WWII armor green? Also, did they use more than one "shade" of green, so i can have a bit of variety, or do i just need to tint and weather my green to represent fading etc. to get some variety? thanks, Azure

[6thompsons]

I e-mailed GHQ direct on this (didn't belong to the forum yet) and I was told to use CLR9. Commie Dark Green as he put it. This was for early post war Soviet vehicles (1946-1965) so I believe the same would apply for WWII.
Regards,
Charlie T.

[DrBig]

Both US Olive Drab & Russian Tank Green are the most confused colors of the post war modelling world. To make a long story short...

Russian books which have appeared in the past several years declare their wartime green color not to be the 'dark green' Mr. Zaloga had been advertising over the past two decades, but a lighter Olive Green similar to FS595b 34102 . I have the actual paint chip for this color, & it matches Humbrol 117 nicely. Testors 1713 is not a good match.

see

http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_mus ... w2ussr.htm

I haven't yet tried to compate it to the GHQ colors yet, but it's on my list.

In case you are interested in the other colors,

34259- no match in Humbrol or Testors enamels; H159 comes close, but needs to be lightened. Mixing with Testors 2095 is my guess at a winning ticket
23578-the best is Testors 1706; possible contenders are Testors 2053, H121. Keep in mind, all these are flat, but the 23578 is a semi gloss
30117-Testors 1701 perfect match.

[Azure]

Im not certain where (or if) i can aquire humbrol paints, as i live in the US, and i havent seen them at any of my local hobby shops-Tamiya, Polly Scale, and Testors are about it for my choices. Dr Big, thanks for the info on the colors, but im not sure i understand it. Are the numbers that you list the "names" for the actual colors, the list numbers of model paints, or both? I know next to nothing about WWII russian vehicles, and absolutely nothing about the color(s) that they were painted, save that it was some type of green. So there are Testor's colors that are close? Thanks, Azure

[DrBig]

Hi Azure, I'm here to help!

It sounds to me that you may not be aware of paint standards. The U.S. uses FS595b, Germany uses RAL, Britain uses BS 381c, etc. Model researchers use these standard paint chip sets to communicate with each other, and tell each other 'what the color of that tank looks like'. So, when I say that Russian armor green was like 34102, that refers to a specific federal paint chip. However, this is only a starting point as you need to adjust for scale, weathering, etc, so you have alot of flexibility. That's the whole point of the GHQ paints anyway...they are adjusted for scale.

The GHQ CLR9 Dark Green is darker than 34102, and not olive, so it sounds like GHQ fell in the Zaloga trap & went with the 1970's Russian dark green, as did many other companies. It will depend on your monitor, but this gives you an idea of what it's like:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorserve ... p?fs=34102

I don't have the paints yet, but I suspect Camo Green CLR1 or Khaki Drab CLR6 might be better choices.

BTW, you can email me your address, & I can make up a paint chip of H117 & send it to you. This will give you an idea what to look for.

[Mk 1]

This M10 is from the collection of the Patton Museum at Ft. Knox. The museum does very good research, has access to every document of the U.S. School of Armor (at Ft. Knox), and is visited by more veteran tanker organizations than almost any other facility in the U.S.


This M5 is part of the collection of the 14th Armored Division (Re-Enactors) in Louisville, Kentucky. This group participates in the "living history" presentations at Ft. Knox every year. Tim, the owner, is currently restoring a Renault FT for the Patton Museum.

The color scheme used on these two vehicles is very likely to be as historically accurate as one can reasonably expect to be.


These are some of my US Army ETO vehicles. I use Testor's Model Master Olive Drab spray cans (and a bottle of the same to brush-on any repairs as needed) for my base color, on top of Floquil white primer, with weathering as described elsewhere in these fora.

I find the result to be quite reasonable as a match to my own experiences with the vehicles pictures above.

[DrBig]

Mk 1, yes & no. People who have the actual WW2 chips and even loaded paint cans say the OD is much darker. But, before you flip out Testors OD is cited as a wonderful match for 'scaled down' OD, perfect for smaller models such as ours. Even more so when you consider how fast OD faded, which I think your real tanks above do quite well with. Like I said, there is alot of flexibility for us. The research only gets you to a reasonable starting point. If you visit the reenactor sites on the web, you'll see alot of OD anxiety!

[Mk 1]

Dr. Big said:
But, before you flip out ...

Before I flip out? Before I flip out?!?


Yeah you better hope I don't flip out!

Mk 1, yes & no. People who have the actual WW2 chips and even loaded paint cans say the OD is much darker. But, before you flip out Testors OD is cited as a wonderful match for 'scaled down' OD, perfect for smaller models such as ours. Even more so when you consider how fast OD faded, which I think your real tanks above do quite well with. Like I said, there is alot of flexibility for us. The research only gets you to a reasonable starting point. If you visit the reenactor sites on the web, you'll see alot of OD anxiety!

I agree that "research only gets you to a reasonable starting point." That was why I described the Patton Museaum's M10 as about as close as one might "reasonably" expect to get.

I have also done some of that kind of research on my own. As well as seeing dozens of restored vehicles, I've had the priveledge to check out many WW2 era vehicles which had been stored, but were unrestored.


Here is an unrestored Sherman Jumbo.


Anyone brave enough to venture a guess at what this is? (Hint: think early WW2, Pacific.)


If we can just get through the dust, we might get a nice sense of Panzer Grey on this Krupp Protze.


How about the business end of an unrestored M3 Lee?

Yes, I know there is debate about the "perfect" color. I don't think one should even seek it. Just get close, and make up any difference in your painting techniques.

Oh, and the question was also asked about Soviet armor colors. There is much debate on that color too.


I like Testor's Model Master in Medium Green (FS34102). It matches my own observations of Soviet armor colors.


Oh, but don't forget to weather your T-34s up REAL good. In particular, make sure you give them some exhaust stains.


Gotta know what you're trying to achieve as an end result, or all the color charts on earth won't help you

[DrBig]

Yikes! Did I say anything?

Azure, take a look at Mk. 1's T-34. That looks like the lighter postwar olive green shade, but would be perfect on WW2 microarmour. Remember guys, when I talk about charts & matches, I'm only referring to to a fresh coat of paint on a 1:1 scale vehicle on day 1 before it leaves the factory. So when I say Testor's isn't a good match, it's only in that context.

[1ComOpsCtr]

To all involved in the great "color debate"...

Color is one of the most subjective issues surrounding miniature painting. As example I would like you to scroll up to the pictures Mark 1 was so kind to provide as examples. OD, while subject to an FSN (Federal Specification Number) has the potential to look completely different from one batch to the next.

As evidence to my statement I will relate a story that occured in 1965.

I returned from a training assignment in the UK near the end of February 1965 to find my squadron in the process of changing from yellow ground support equipment to OD ground support equipment. Being the sligtly crazy young Marine I was in 1965, and having just completed a very rigerous training program that made me feel I could lick the world single handed I found myself in trouble with the H&MS First Sergeant. His response to my getting myself in trouble was to assign me the task of painting all of the NC-5s and NC-10s for all of the squadrons on the flightline... there were three squadrons assigned to our MAG at the time, which gave me lots of stuff to paint. I went to supply to draw enough paint to get the job done and was given I don't remember how many cans of primer and paint. More paint than primer though, as I remember.

There was another Marine who had run afoul of the First Sergeant who was assigned the task of assisting... We worked 12 hour days for over a week getting the units cleaned, primed and finally painted. When we were done we had completed something like 12-14 individual items, not all were Aux Power units I might add, but there were other items that we had to paint that were added to our tasking.

When we were completed we had roughly three distinct color groups. First we had the group where we had primed before painting. Second we had the group where we had run out of primer and painted over the high-vis-yellow directly. And third we had the initial group of two units we had completed, before we really knew what we were doing. Those two NC-5s were a lighter shade than the others. They were primed correctly, but we had used a slightly off mixture of air/paint and had not received the coverage the later units got. They were still OD by the book, but they were slightly different. We quickly sent them to the furtherest unit from the 1st Sergeant's office right after we painted the third (1st NC-10) item after finding out our problem when one of the metal shop Marines (ANCOIC) stopped by to see how we were doing. He corrected our "process" and since he was a driniking buddy he did not make us repaint the first two units.

What I'm saying, and is evidenced by my own experience and Mark 1s pictures is this: Color batching occurred depending on where and when the vehicle was painted, and by whom... There will be slightly different variations of the same color, even wide differences, depending on the circumstances involved at the time.

In 1/285th scale the general idea is make your models look good, and appear as realistic as possible under the constraints of the small scale. How the individual gamer/collector arrives as his/her decision regarding color is up to that individual. Model Masters provides several examples of greens that work for Modern & WW2 armor, as did Pactra if you can still find any of the Pactra series. (Their Panzer Gray and Yellow were really good in my opinion) You can pick almost any of the colors, weather it, base the model, and it will look good next to the rest of your equipment as long as you spend some time weathering and dusting your vehicles...

When I paint a WW2 vehicle I use four different olive drab paints from three different manufacturers because I like the way they look together from the dark base to the light "highlighter" followed by grime, mud, and dust in that order. I will reduce the applications of lighter colors on "replacement vehilces" in some of our very detailed games where those players that are paying attention to the game can see the latest tanks within a unit (if there are any) which will tell them one of two things: New tank/old crew or New tank/new crew, which may make a difference in their combat experience.

But that is probably too much detail for those of you who play a representative game where one tank represents many...

Will
ComOpsCtr

[DrBig]

Totally agree.

btw, for guys using Polly Scale paints, the USAAF OD (505224) is nice for WW2 armor. (don't let the USAAF scare you)

[jb]

...now you see,this why we need to keep threads archived . We just had this OD green thing going for a month and a half.
The consnesus was that there is no "real" OD green. It is seen in a lot of different shades. I guess then if you want a "true" OD,you need to match the exact shade to the subject that needs the paint i.e. a particular vehicle(s) from a given picture....

[1ComOpsCtr]

Gentlemen,

Pictures... Hummmmmmm.

All pictures, even digital, involve a process that makes an effort at matching color pixals within the available spectrum of your printer or monitor.

That makes color subjective again, ...influenced by what is available to reproduce it.

SO, what does that mean? I think it means you get as close as you can with what appears right to you, and perhaps a friend or your wife, or significant other... When it comes to color I always have someone else look at it before I make my final choice. Usually they agree with me, but not always.

Most national color decisions (like what color do we pant our tanks?) are made based on the environment they will be fighting on, like the general color of the sand in Iraq.

What if you were going to fight you battles on sand you created based on what you, as the gamer, thought the sand should look like. Would it not make more sense to paint your vehicles the same sand color??? After all, the objective of painting them sand in the first place is so thay don't show up from above, or at a distance.

How about if you were playing your games on GeoHex grass green terrain, and to simulate efforts to make your tanks difficult to see perhaps you would paint them the same color, well?

Did you know that cammo netting works in 1/285th scale.



Off to the right in this picture is a properly netted SA-8 GECKO by GHQ. In the center of the picture is a ZSU-23 that is usually netted. During the games we play over this terrain most, if not all, new players do not notice the GECKO, and may suspect the ZSU, but usually don't ask about it unless their INTEL provides a note about it.

You can purchase aluminum screen for model cars that comes in a 6" by 4" piece that works really well as netting. All you need to do is paint it a local earth tone and add off angled stripes of other earth tones, and add some ground cover identical to what is around the item being hid... it works, really it does.

Will
ComOpsCtr

[Azure]

Thank you all SO much! the pictures help a TON, ty for all the good color suggestions for testors paints too! I got my 1st shipment of GHQ minis yesterday (panther Gs !!) and hope to have pics up in a couple days in the "show us your stuff" thread (i modeled german armor in 1/35th, the only nationality im pretty comfortable on colors with)
It has been rumored that i can be a pest with questions...that may be true, but again, thanks to EVERYONE for the help and support this forum has showed so far!
Gettin ready to place my next order (some T-34s and SU 100s, and infantry) and put the russian paint info to some use-wish me luck!