DAK Machinegun Battalions

8ball · Post by **8ball** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:25 am

In February 1941 the 5th Light Division was sort of slapped together to form what would become the Afrika Korps. One of the units, (eventually to be named the 104th PG Regiment) was composed of two battalions, the 2nd and 8th Machinegun Battalions.

Does anyone know the TO&E for these two units, or where I can find it?

Thx.

8

Der Kommandeur · Post by **Der Kommandeur** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:16 am

Hi 8ball

I was after this information myself recently. Definitive information is impossible to come by, but I hope the following helps.

Aberger's "Die 5.(lei.)21.Panzer-Division in Nordafrika 1941â€“1943" p27 lists Machinengewehr-Battalion 2 and 8, but no mention of Schutzen Regiment 104 (as it would then have been designated) for end March 1941.

The first mention of Schtz.Rgt.104 is on p73/74, where a diagram (p74) indicates Schtz.Rgt.104 (2 bns) and MG.Btl.8 on 21 Panzer Division establishment (15 August 1941). By 24 July 1942 Pz.Gren.Regt.104 has 3 bns and there is no mention of MG.Btl.8.

It is my understanding that MG.Btl.8 formed the third bn of Pz.Gren.Regt.104 when it was re-equipped in Tunisia (see my topic in the first link).

So ... these threads at feldgrau.com may help:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=118478

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20378

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12464

I hope this is of interest and helpful.

DK

8ball · Post by **8ball** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:31 pm

Thanks amigo-

There is a lot of speculation on these rather enigmatic units. This description from Jason's site seems reasonable:

These units were raised as mobile defensive formations and were originally structured with 3 motorized machine-gun companies and a motorized anti-tank company with twelve 37mm Pak 36 AT guns. By the invasion of France the anti-tank company had been restructured as a heavy company with two platoons of AT guns, totalling six guns and a 81mm mortar platoon, also of six tubes. In addition some units had been reinforced with additional companies of motorized engineers and anti-tank guns.

So, until someone can set me straight, this is as close as I can come for now:

3-Machinegun Companies, each with two platoons of four MG34s in sustained fire mode, and one platoon of six 82 mm mortars;
1-Anti-tank Company, with two platoons of three 37mm ATG, and one platoon of 82mm mortars.

Considering that it seems these units were intended to hold ground and protect flanks, this TO&E "seems" correct.

Thanks Kommandeur

Der Kommandeur · Post by **Der Kommandeur** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:59 pm

Hi 8ball

Your interpretation seems to overlook some of the information posted in the first Feldgrau link. Contributor DavidW indiacted this structure for 1941 (ie DAK):

"8th M/G Batt: April 1941.

StaB Ko: 1 x Pio zug. 10 x SdKfz 251/1. 11 x le/mg.

3x Ko: 15 x S/mg 3 x le/Gr.

PzJag Ko: 9 x 37mm PaK. 3 x le/mg.

Schwere Ko: 6 x 37mm PaK. 2 x le/mg. 6 x S/GrW.

Krad Ko: 18 x le/mg 8 x S/mg. 3x le/Gr.

Pio Ko: 9 x le/mg. (used in Aug '41 to form part of 200th Pz Pio Batt)."

ie 7 Kompanien (not 4), which makes it a much more interesting unit to model IMHO.

The same contributor suggests MG.Btl.8 was further modified thus:

"28/08/41: 1 x Pio Zug arrives to fill void left by departing Pio Ko.

10/03/42: PzJag Ko & Schwere Ko reinforcements = 6 x S/Gr.W
12 x 28mm PaK. 12 x 50mm PaK."

BTW: "200th Pz Pio Batt" was 21 Panzer's Pioniere unit.

DK

Marc-Andre · Post by **Marc-Andre** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:38 pm

Hi all,

the TO&E of MG BTl. 2 & 8 are no problem ! Just look at Doc Niehorsters excellent TO&E site.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... pz-21.html

The only topic raised are the 10 Sd.Kfz 251/1 both battalions received. There is no official TO&E for them and I can only conclude they were a transport reserve used by the battalion commander as he needed them.

Furthermore, to equal out 15th and 21st Pz Divs SchÃ¼tzenregiment (mot.) 104 went to 21st from 15th. The 15th therefore received one of 21sts MG Btl.

One more thing that is entirely debatable are the motorcycle MG platoons. Niehorster depicts them as HMG platoons, but I'm not too sure. The divisional book depicts them as ordinary motorcycle rifle platoons (with 4 l.MG instead). In my opinion this makes more sense, they would act as integral recon. But I might be mistaken.

A command order from Aug 17th 1941 orders the the reequipment of one 37mm Pak 36 platoon in each of the heavy coys of both Btl to Pak 38. It also orders the reequipment of MG Btl. 8's PanzerjÃ¤ger coy to Pak 38.

Marc-Andre

8ball · Post by **8ball** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:21 pm

That's a great link. It answers the question. I was a little leary of the Fieldgrau link because of the SdKfz 251/1 and motorcycle references.

Thanks fellas.

Der Kommandeur · Post by **Der Kommandeur** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:56 pm

Hi Marc-Andre
Hi 8ball

I have had a closer look at the diagram I cited ... and made a proper effort to decifer all those little symbols

So ... Aberger lists the KradschÃ¼tzen Kompanie as having a total of 8 lei.Mg. (the diagram is dated a month later than Niehorster's). This would support your view Marc-Andre.

Regarding antitank weapons, he lists 3 PanzerbÃ¼che leicht for each Machinengewehr Kompanie, 8 "Pak schwer" for the PanzerjÃ¤ger Kompanie, and 6 "Pak schwer" for two PanzerjÃ¤ger Zug within a SchÃ¼tzen Kompanie (which is not shown in Niehorster's diagram). This may be the Schwere Kompanie since "mittel Granatawerfer" are also indicated. The Pionierzug is not shown as having tracked vehicles.

MG.Btl.2 (off to 15 PZ presumably) has been replaced by Schtz.Rgt.104, with 2 bns and a PanzerjÃ¤ger Kompanie.

FWIW: I'm building my miniature representation with the m/c coy with light mgs and all the mg coys with sustained fire tripod mounts.

I hope this is of interest.

DK