Nice one GHQ!
First civillians ...
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Der Kommandeur
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First civillians ...
Did you all overlook the new Vietnamese civilians? No my thing, but gives me a glimpse of what to expect of the Middle Eastern set. Maybe some Europeans to follow sometime... rustic and Parisian French perhaps? Could use some of these as colonials for my North African/Tunisian/Moroccan campaign.
Nice one GHQ!
Nice one GHQ!
Last edited by Der Kommandeur on Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Der Kommandeur
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Ritter
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Mk 1
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Der Kommandeur
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Hi UlrichWW
Purpose of civillians? How about for populating the miniature towns ... might make you think that bit harder when caling in a barrage on the troops in the fortified building in the middle of the village ... now you'll have to carefully attack them with infantry on foot
I like the idea of civillian figures because it will make my miniature landscape less barren and provide a better visual context for the miniature conflicts I organise ... I don't plan to go killing them on purpose ... but then I'm playing North Africa/Tunisia/Morocco.
While not my theatre, it seems to me that the availability of the Vietnamese civilians allows the possibility of concealing VC among them without revealing to the US player where or how many ... just one possibility of many.
Regarding that call for casualties in another thread ... I would (also) rather see medics attending casualties rather than hoards of dead bodies (that's fantasy gaming isn't it?) ... but I want an Austin K2 first
And while I acknowledge the background to all this is historical seriousness, it is a game after all
Just a few thoughts.
DK
Purpose of civillians? How about for populating the miniature towns ... might make you think that bit harder when caling in a barrage on the troops in the fortified building in the middle of the village ... now you'll have to carefully attack them with infantry on foot
I like the idea of civillian figures because it will make my miniature landscape less barren and provide a better visual context for the miniature conflicts I organise ... I don't plan to go killing them on purpose ... but then I'm playing North Africa/Tunisia/Morocco.
While not my theatre, it seems to me that the availability of the Vietnamese civilians allows the possibility of concealing VC among them without revealing to the US player where or how many ... just one possibility of many.
Regarding that call for casualties in another thread ... I would (also) rather see medics attending casualties rather than hoards of dead bodies (that's fantasy gaming isn't it?) ... but I want an Austin K2 first
And while I acknowledge the background to all this is historical seriousness, it is a game after all
Just a few thoughts.
DK
Der Kommandeur
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Der Kommandeur
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skypig53
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I recently got my pee pee smacked (Marine jargon for chastised) by another member of the forum, so I hope this doesn't turn into more of a political debate than a discussion of warfare or gaming, I'll try to steer clear. Der Kommandeur is exactly right, if of course you are going for absolute realism. I say again, Absolute Realism. As historical buffs, which we all are in some way, we know that civilian casualties are a part of war. In World War II it was considered (somewhat) exceptable to carpet bomb part of a city to get to single target, or simply to inflict "civilian casualties. All sides participated in this, it wasn't just a Nazi thing or an American thing. In more modern times "collateral damage" has become unacceptable. In fact it is so unacceptable that protecting innocent civilians takes precedence over the mission objectives and can result in loss of military personnel in the process. Some of our enemies know this and use it to great effect on the battle field. Depending on the forces you are playing you may choose to protect the innocent at all cost and at the detriment to your men and mission, or you may decide it is in your best interest to use the civilian populace as a weapon against your kinder, gentler enemy. Or you may just use them for scenery only and remove them when the fighting gets too close.
I guess it just depends on what you want in a game. More dynamics or variables might make things more interesting or you might just think its too much, or not care at all. Me personally I think it would depend on the conflict and scenario. Especially if you're playing modern rules as the new warfare is combined arms operations in urban terrain. You can't really, nor do you need to, simulate civilians in large scale WW II tank battle. Just my opinion and we know what opinions are like.
I guess it just depends on what you want in a game. More dynamics or variables might make things more interesting or you might just think its too much, or not care at all. Me personally I think it would depend on the conflict and scenario. Especially if you're playing modern rules as the new warfare is combined arms operations in urban terrain. You can't really, nor do you need to, simulate civilians in large scale WW II tank battle. Just my opinion and we know what opinions are like.
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Bruce Morris
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Perhaps some tramways, busses, some lorries and cars will be enough stuff to make an urban scenery more realistic, but no need for women and children at all.
Just who are supposed to be populating these vehicles, buildings, etc.? Where do 'civilians' go when the shooting starts. Are 'civilians' prohibited from participation in combat and supporting their fighters, who are all to often these days not 'uniformed'.
Personally I really don't really see myself using civilian figures as part of my wargaming, but historically they do have their place.
Just my opinion.
Bruce Morris
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1ComOpsCtr
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There are civilians for this conflict becasue they played a very important part in the war, and they deserve to be represented, even the children.
If you have a problem with that: get over it!
I fully expect (hope actually) GHQ to produce civilians for the Iraq/Afghanistan/Bosnian theaters also. If you have a problem with that: get over it!
Its the right thing to do.
Will
If you have a problem with that: get over it!
I fully expect (hope actually) GHQ to produce civilians for the Iraq/Afghanistan/Bosnian theaters also. If you have a problem with that: get over it!
Its the right thing to do.
Will
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, 1844-1900
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tstockton
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If I may, my two cents worth (and remember -- two cents ain't worth what it used to be!)...
As someone who models rather than games, I would love to see some "non-combatant" items, such as civilians, farm animals, cars, trucks, tractors, road signs, telephone / telegraph poles, etc. We've got this great scenery system, and some pretty cool buildings -- but the scene is "not quite complete". Maybe my background in 1/35 scale diorama building and (especially) 1/87 (HO) scale model railroading have "warped" my judgement. But there are some things that are missing that I don't have the talent to build on my own. I know it can be done... but not by me. I know that the good folks at GHQ have the talent to do them. And I know it's often the case that if you don't ask for it, you won't get it. Someone once told me, "I can't read your mind -- about half the time, you can't even read your own mind!" Too true... so I've learned to (politely!) ask for the things I want...
The bottom line -- as a modeler, I want to add more to my scenes. Hence, the desire to have "non-combatant" items.
Where would it stop? Good question... GHQ makes available some military ambulance models... from a modeler's perspective, where are the unfortunate souls who need their services? It could make for an interesting scene... stretecher bearers bringing the wounded to the ambulance for aid.
As for the "dead bodies" that UlrichWW mentions -- no, not for me... and I might have some objections if they were to become available. But most unfortunately -- that is a part of war. And if someone wanted to make their model battlefield look as realistic as possible... well, while I might not like it, I also realize that "to each his own" is very much a part of any hobby.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... thanks for reading through this!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
As someone who models rather than games, I would love to see some "non-combatant" items, such as civilians, farm animals, cars, trucks, tractors, road signs, telephone / telegraph poles, etc. We've got this great scenery system, and some pretty cool buildings -- but the scene is "not quite complete". Maybe my background in 1/35 scale diorama building and (especially) 1/87 (HO) scale model railroading have "warped" my judgement. But there are some things that are missing that I don't have the talent to build on my own. I know it can be done... but not by me. I know that the good folks at GHQ have the talent to do them. And I know it's often the case that if you don't ask for it, you won't get it. Someone once told me, "I can't read your mind -- about half the time, you can't even read your own mind!" Too true... so I've learned to (politely!) ask for the things I want...
The bottom line -- as a modeler, I want to add more to my scenes. Hence, the desire to have "non-combatant" items.
Where would it stop? Good question... GHQ makes available some military ambulance models... from a modeler's perspective, where are the unfortunate souls who need their services? It could make for an interesting scene... stretecher bearers bringing the wounded to the ambulance for aid.
As for the "dead bodies" that UlrichWW mentions -- no, not for me... and I might have some objections if they were to become available. But most unfortunately -- that is a part of war. And if someone wanted to make their model battlefield look as realistic as possible... well, while I might not like it, I also realize that "to each his own" is very much a part of any hobby.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... thanks for reading through this!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
"Well, I've been to one World's Fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones. You sure you got today's codes?"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
-- Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove"
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Der Kommandeur
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Hi All
Well ... I guess we are talking about morality, in a way. Here I have to admit that I steered away from European theatres because I didn't want to represent Waffen SS formations ... clearly one doesn't have to represent them, but their reputation (as fighting froces) and equipment does makes them appealing.
So I plumped for Tunisa. I can have (a few) Tigers, and the Stuka is still a potent weapon.
Anyhow, for my part I like a certain authenticity to the look of my games ... I grew up in the shadow of my Dad's model railway, marvelling at the quality of the scenery. Awed by the late Peter Guider's Waterloo terrain – as I discovered more sophisticated wargames as a teenager – now the modeller in me wants to add these details, and that includes people. Not because I intend to massacre them, but because they're a legitimate part of the fabric. And, yes, in a way, by representing them, one honours them.
I've furnished my miniature Afrika Korps with ambulances (but have to wait on the Austin K2 for the Brits
) and large, suitably marked tents for the field hospital. One of the Ju52s I plan to buy in December (when the Middle Eastern civillians and the Go242 have been released – got to be able to order a sensible amount ) will get Sanitäts-Flugbereitschaft 2 markings.
But there's hypocrisy everywhere you care to look for it in all of these arguments ... after all, we're turning warfare into a pastime! And I simply love brewing up Grants with my DAK 88s!
There ... that's at least 50 pence worth!
DK
Well ... I guess we are talking about morality, in a way. Here I have to admit that I steered away from European theatres because I didn't want to represent Waffen SS formations ... clearly one doesn't have to represent them, but their reputation (as fighting froces) and equipment does makes them appealing.
So I plumped for Tunisa. I can have (a few) Tigers, and the Stuka is still a potent weapon.
Anyhow, for my part I like a certain authenticity to the look of my games ... I grew up in the shadow of my Dad's model railway, marvelling at the quality of the scenery. Awed by the late Peter Guider's Waterloo terrain – as I discovered more sophisticated wargames as a teenager – now the modeller in me wants to add these details, and that includes people. Not because I intend to massacre them, but because they're a legitimate part of the fabric. And, yes, in a way, by representing them, one honours them.
I've furnished my miniature Afrika Korps with ambulances (but have to wait on the Austin K2 for the Brits
) and large, suitably marked tents for the field hospital. One of the Ju52s I plan to buy in December (when the Middle Eastern civillians and the Go242 have been released – got to be able to order a sensible amount ) will get Sanitäts-Flugbereitschaft 2 markings.But there's hypocrisy everywhere you care to look for it in all of these arguments ... after all, we're turning warfare into a pastime! And I simply love brewing up Grants with my DAK 88s!
There ... that's at least 50 pence worth!
DK
Der Kommandeur
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Der Kommandeur
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While I respect you right to your opinion, for now I feel you are really over-egging this matter ... and it's becoming something of a rant – but maybe that's just the katyusha speaking
After all, the extent of the realism is determined by the scale and the amount of detail in the representation ... for now all I'm looking for are civillian figures to add some 'colour' and character to the civillian environments around which and through which my miniature formations manoeuvre. I'm not really thinking of them as 'victims', just 'colour'.
The nature of modern news media – or go see IEDs at work on YouTube, are as close as I wish to get to real armed conflict ... but this does not deter me from wishing to simulate all the what-ifs that historical miniature gaming offers, and embellish that experience with an appropriate amount of detail, which is what I think you may be driving at.
But you know what Ulrich, next time you're in the UK go and see the (London) Imperial War Museum's Holocaust exhibition... one of the most remarkable exhibits is a vast (roughly) 1/72 diorama of the processing of one of the trains as it arrives at Auschwitz ... there is the power of model making!
DK out!
After all, the extent of the realism is determined by the scale and the amount of detail in the representation ... for now all I'm looking for are civillian figures to add some 'colour' and character to the civillian environments around which and through which my miniature formations manoeuvre. I'm not really thinking of them as 'victims', just 'colour'.
The nature of modern news media – or go see IEDs at work on YouTube, are as close as I wish to get to real armed conflict ... but this does not deter me from wishing to simulate all the what-ifs that historical miniature gaming offers, and embellish that experience with an appropriate amount of detail, which is what I think you may be driving at.
But you know what Ulrich, next time you're in the UK go and see the (London) Imperial War Museum's Holocaust exhibition... one of the most remarkable exhibits is a vast (roughly) 1/72 diorama of the processing of one of the trains as it arrives at Auschwitz ... there is the power of model making!
DK out!
Der Kommandeur
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WOW and Whew!
Lots of passion here...
I think we all can agree that we do not want UlrichWW's form of Realism on the game table. We are for the most part, adults, and know that we are playing a game that most of us started playing in the back yard dirt pile with our airfix HO-OH scale plastic soldats. I dont want or need to see the messy details of War, but I know that they are there and I have compasion for its victims - on all sides. I game because I like the detail, painting and companionship of gaming - not the horror of war.
Tom makes a good point that many of us are creating scenery and use the civs for that type of realism. I for one would like to see more non-combatants and items geared for scenery...bunkers, haystacks, bicycles, trash cans, field kitchens, cows...
And if a diorama regarding atrocities of war makes our stomach turn, then it has done its job of making us think...death is no game- period...
Troy
Lots of passion here...
I think we all can agree that we do not want UlrichWW's form of Realism on the game table. We are for the most part, adults, and know that we are playing a game that most of us started playing in the back yard dirt pile with our airfix HO-OH scale plastic soldats. I dont want or need to see the messy details of War, but I know that they are there and I have compasion for its victims - on all sides. I game because I like the detail, painting and companionship of gaming - not the horror of war.
Tom makes a good point that many of us are creating scenery and use the civs for that type of realism. I for one would like to see more non-combatants and items geared for scenery...bunkers, haystacks, bicycles, trash cans, field kitchens, cows...
And if a diorama regarding atrocities of war makes our stomach turn, then it has done its job of making us think...death is no game- period...
Troy