First civillians ...

[Der Kommandeur]

I'm a bit surprised, to say the least, that, given the context, we got to this point!

Oh! The rich tapestry!

[1ComOpsCtr]

UlrichWW

If you are an adult with the experience to shed some truth and light among the shards of darkness that is war, and not just someone spouting the platitudes of the "anti-war crowd" I applaud you "feelings" and the passion with which you share them.

As an adult who had experienced first hand the "brutality and beauty" that is modern combat from Viet Nam to Afghanistan and whose job it has become to help future generations of combat Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen of the militaries of 17 countries profit from the experience realistic table top simulations can provide I again applaud the addition of civilians to GHQ's line of miniatures. And again I request further additions to the civilian ranks. There needs to be Arabs and Europeans, Russian Peasants and Polish Citizens, Bosnians and Croats, animals and battlefield accessories (I have been asking for trash cans, phone booths, etc, etc... for decades).



Why? Because in almost every theater of war much of what civilians do every day keeps on going despite the conflict. In Viet Nam I would fly over or walk through rice paddies full of men, women, and children doing what they did every day amidst the shelling, high speed metal, smoke, and danger... because that's what they had to do to stay alive.

In Bosnia, while attached to the EU Monitors I watched Croats, Bosnians, and Serbs keep working as we drove by on our way to clear a minefield or chase Radko Mladic, and in all of the middle east civilians are part of the battlefield every day.

And, much to the shock and horror of the press, most of them are unharmed in any way shape or form. They are there and they must be dealt with in a humane way, which is a very important part of training.

Casualties are also there, but with the exception of the sensationalism being used to influence public opinion, they are not seen by everyone. In fact, they are probably not seen by 50% of the military either during their normal duties.



When dealing with a new LT a marker like the picture above makes them "take notice". Most new officers have not witnessed the carnage that can be a mortar position that just took a direct hit, or had to deal with the burned out hulk of a Hummer after its been gutted by a VBIED. They need to know. As George C. Scott said in Patton: "when you place your hand in a pile of goo that once was your friend's face, ...well, you'll know what to do". I would much rather them deal with it in miniature (with all the license available) than have to deal with it for real. That's why we try to make our training as real as possible, ...even in miniature.

That's my 2 cents worth. If my words don't just make you happy: get over it!

As adults we have the right to our opinions... I, and my brothers in arms, have left pieces of our bodies on battlefields all over the world trying to defend our right to say what we believe. That's your right too UlrichWW, "the fall of the wall" helped see to that too I believe.

Will
ComOpsCtr

[Pitfall]

There seems to be a general misunderstaning in this thread. I think Ulrich is assuming that most of us will be using civilians as targets on our games, and that is where most of his comments are coming from. I don't think anyone is advocating for civilian models just so they can kill 1/285 scale babies with a .50 cal.

I would hope that these civilians would be used to represent objectives on the game board. Maybe the goal is to hold an area until the civilians can be evacuated, or as someone else mentioned, a reason why artillery can't be used to attack a town under siege. The idea of insurgents hiding amongst civilians is also a legitimate idea, escpecially if you are recreating modern conflicts.

War does not occur in a vacuum.

[jb]

Ja! WOW! A lot of trepidation, and enthusiasm here. Why just stop at civilian casualties that bother you? Why not finger out who is doing the butchery as upsetting you? Then you won't be buying anything. Its like the story of the handgun,who does the killing the gun or the criminal? Any ways having the civilians is a missing piece in the gaming. If it upsets someone as to them being sold-just don't buy them. Another missing thing is civilian vehicles. I've often gamed in my area that I live in using topo maps of the area. When doing wargames in a modern nature I often wonder about all those thousands of cars and trucks that are missing. Man what a traffic jam you WILL have with just a fraction of them on the board. That is actually worth a tactical decision to make. How many of you have thousands of cars? I thought so.
As for some of us that like to realistically wargame,civilians and their stuff is as important as those trucks that supply the front (general term). I just got home from Rock Con. We did a scenario from around the Ia drang valley. The air cav was in search of Charlie,to find positions , destroy,and capture prisoners. The loaches flew in drew fire two took hits and both were forced down. One was brought down right in the midst of an NVA platoon. The surviving loaches surveyed the crash site and could only see Charlie in the AO. They were not shot up by the gunslingers beacuse of the status of the crew (they were captured and brought underground). The air cav did not know the status of their comrades. Game wise we could see the enemy and the enemy only. What would you do? We gave the player the same amount of time to think it over as the snake driver would have had. He did not fire. He did dismount his aero rifle platoon,but a klick and half away. That was a mistake. He had an LZ that was only a few hundred meters away (from the crash site), that was already scouted as no enemy there,and more imeadiatly accessable to the crash site. Thats when I stopped the game. Where he landed his troops would have taken him well over an hour to reach the site maybe longer, because he would have had to go over a large steep mini mountain hill through growth ,cross a river, and then climb another mini moutain hill to just reach the site. Well in the meantime Charlie just ducked away with the prize. Winners for the day. Oh Charlie did lose 20 troops,but they got the prisoners.
Any ways thats how we play our games.
As for the subject in question, I would love to have some civilians because you just don't know who charlie is...

[robdab]

Ulrich,

Many of my group's skirmish wargames have included civilians for years. Certainly in Vietnam and most modern wars since, civilians are an everyday part of the battlefield. Some of our games include an imbedded cameraman or two and woe unto the side that drops a civilian within sight of his/her camera. They loose in the court of world opinion no matter how well they do over the remainder of that scenario. Indeed, our referee, a former combat medic, often awards victory point bonuses for evacuating wounded, protection of civilians and otherwise "winning hearts and minds". Casualty counts ARE important to us in awarding the victory and will affect the ongoing, linked campaign games that we use to simulate war.

Can you even present a realistic wargame set anywhere in today's Middle East, Iraq or Afghanistan WITHOUT the possibility of a suicide bomber (or two or three or ...) delivering a deadly cargo ?

And why is it ok to kill men with no regrets/afterthought but women (whether armed or not) are sacred ? What kind of a monster are YOU, anyway ? Death is death and comes to us all, equally, in the end.

I had three friends blown up 5' in front of me by an (apparently 12 year old) kid with a handgrenade in her basket of flowers. Is war Hell ? You bet. Should our children be raised to fear it as a great evil, to be avoided whenever possible ? No doubt. Should we teach them the necessity of fighting for what is right, in all its painful detail ? Oh YES. How else are to they understand WHY war is to be avoided whenever and however possible ? In my experience WAR is NOT about clean uniforms, marching in parades and medals for bravery and honour. It is ALL about dying in the mud of a foreign land, screaming for your mother because a way of life IS worth dying for.

You Sir, should find another hobby.

Robert

[tstockton]

Wow, this is getting heated!...

But, c'mon guys -- let's keep it civil! UlrichWW has just as much right to his opinion as I have to mine... as to any of us has to ours. What we need is the civility to respect that each of us has opinions -- and while we can "stand on our soapbox" and voice our opinions all we want, let's try to remember that we are all participating in this forum for one common reason -- the enjoyment we gain from our shared hobby of 1:285 scale micro armour.

Let us continue to enjoy that hobby, without getting into the "flame wars" I've seen far too frequently in other forums I participate in.

Regards,
Tom Stockton

[Der Kommandeur]

I love this space!

But you know, Tom, it started really low-key ... just look at the first two or three posts. Ulrich applied the heat (maybe it's a language thing ... my partner's German, she's been in the UK 13 years, and she still has problems with nuance in English – and here I do not mean to be patronising).

But, then, the sentiments expressed (not the way they are expressed) do seem to be simply against the representation of civillians.

In a way I am sorry that some here have to ressurect their own experiences in order to make their point (I am sorry on their own and others behalf). But please be clear that I do not mean to suggest that your experiences are not valid, or relevant, but rather are perhaps a little too hard hitting in this context?

And I fear cama's reference to Full Metal Jacket may only pour accelerant on the embers ... have to wait and see ...

But Tom is right, of course, we are all here because we enjoy this micro pastime in some way or other, as gamers, modellers, collectors, historians, or some kind of complex hybrid (hey! that's me! ) – except for the spammers!

Sure, we are all entitled to our opinions, but we need to be very careful about the manner in which we articulate them ... and here, perhaps, the katyusha is speaking with most volume?

Anyhow, Ulrich, apart from your objections to cvillian miniatures, I don't yet have a grasp on your approach to this hobby ... though you seem to want some of the same miniatures as I do (Fieseler Storch)

DK

[jb]

Hallo gentlemen,

now let me ask : for what ?
For what civilian vietnamese ? Somwhere in the forum somebody asks for " casualities ".
So I really want to know " For what " ?
Sorry, but remembering the awful situation of Vietnamese civilians during the war I´m a little bit shocked. And when will appear the napalm ? Sorry, I really like the GHQ items, but this item incurs my displeasure

… bitten welll für eine eine Menge wir hier um die Zivilisten. Was einige andere mit ihnen tun, wohle thats ihr Geschäft. Was mich anbetrifft konnte ich einige Waffen auf einige von ihnen setzen, weil es meine „Kommunist“ Kräfte etwas „andere“ Art Abbildung geben würde. Andere würden gerechtes Teil der Landschaft sein. Yeah sind einige von ihnen Macht ein Teil der Unfall, wenn sie in der AO sind. Was absichtlich sein anbetrifft „führte“ durch, wohl läßt Sagen, das ich krank sein konnte, aber nicht krank-KEIN das würde ich nicht auf einer Spielgrundlage glätten. Ich respektiere wirklich deine Meinung, während ich jeden Körper sonst auf jedem möglichem Forum tue, und danke dir für es, das das folgende eine Abbildung einiger Unfall ist, denen ich pflegte, fireteams zu ersetzen, die während des Spiels beseitigt wurden. Über sie wurden 25 Jahren vor benutzt. Ich glaube, daß sie die Wirksamkeit verleihen von, was das Schlachtfeld wie in Miniatur ist. Sie sogar ansehen läßt mich jetzt denken!!! Thats, was sie tun sollen [size=18,], WARNEN: DIE FOLGENDE ABBILDUNG IST GRAPHISCHE ANSICHT AN DEINEM EIGENEN DISCRECTION! [/size] nach 3
...welll for one a lot of us here ask for the civilians.What some others do with them,well thats their business. As for me I might put some weapons on some of them,because it would give my "communist" forces some "other" type of figure. Others would be just part of the scenery. Yeah some of them might be part of the casualties if they are in the AO. As for being intentionally "executed",well lets say I might be sick,but not that sick-NO I wouldn't even on a play basis.
I really respect your opinion,as I do every body else's on any forum, and thank you for it


WARNING: THE FOLLOWING PICTURE IS GRAPHIC VIEW AT YOUR OWN DISCRECTION! after 3
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[Der Kommandeur]

I think that's unnecessarily provocative.

[jb]

quote] ...I'm at least cultivated and mature enough to leave my feelings and name calling off the forum when I don't like something
The next worst thing to losing a battle is winning one
I've deleted the quote JB

[dnichols]

I welcome the addition of the civilian figures to the GHQ line. No modern battlefield is going to be devoid of civilians. Having figures that could be added to buildings etc. will make more realistic looking scenary.

I have also long wanted to run a modern scenario with displaced civilians clogging a main road and forcing players to move and fight around them. Displaced civilians on the battlefield are a reality that commanders do have to consider in their plans. As a Civil Affairs Officer I have often been part of creating this plans and have always wanted to simulate this on the game table for some added realism.

[Der Kommandeur]

That's better ...

Simply ... and this is my argument 'pro' civillians ... the forthcoming release of a set of Middle Eastern civillians will facilitate my modest modelling and gaming ambitions. That really is all there is to it.

I'm sorry that my indication of appreciation on the one hand and statement of expectations on the other provided the beginnings for some less than considerate exchanges.

We're not here to trample all over one-another's sensibilities. Virtual though it is, this forum is supposed to be a kind of community for folk with similar interests ... spammers excepted of course!

Ulrich: Consider that the context for tactics is warefare ... apart from that I understand and respect your views, but your delivery may have been less of a staccato

JB: try to consider the other's sensibilities and try to adopt appropriate address in terms of tone and content .

On the subject of maturity ... well we're all collecting and/or playing with toys aren't we? (professional applications excepted, Will).

Let's not insult one-another or inflame situations ... after all, that's how wars start!

DK

[jb]

So 1ComOpsCtr, so far i understood, You make commercial training of armed forces, and i´m not surprised in Your behaviour. It´s simply your job. And the way to say, and let me say it with the words you might have thought but not spoken : piss off troublemaker, is typical.
There are different points of view, and to my opinion WAR can´t be a hobby. Tactics yes, perhaps . And the gameboard shouldn´t become a recruiting office! And yes, that´s my opinion, so what ? And yes, i could ask too : are you adult to use moms nail varnish to show what happened if some marines had been drawn into an ambush ?

Your " scream " for civilians is more than depressing. The origin of this discussion was, that Kommandeur was happy, that GHQ has some vietnamese civilians, and i asked " for what " and his arguments " pro " didn´t convince me. That´s it.
And then " realism " was mentioned, and i asked " Where should realism have restrictions " . till now, i haven´t read a conclusive answer.
And perhaps adults should be able to discuss wihtout personal provocations.

And i should like to emphasize particulary that i never wanted to insult anybody, and perhaps i misunderstood the intention of JB. And perhaps my english really is too bad, to understand the delicacey of some explanations.
But that´s my point of view and , nothing more to this !

Thank You gentlemen

Thank god for people like Will! (1comopsctr) We here in the US ARE peaceful,and strive for it. Look at the news,we punish our own for torture and intimdation. We are civilised. But we need to keep an army to keep all these Hitlers ,Stalins ,Hussiens,and others from terrorising the world. To do this there needs to be some professionals to keep the forces trained. Will, has experience that is priceless. I'm sure that it is an experience that he wished he didn't have, but he has it none the less. If he can get his point through to the unlucky ones that have to do the tough job by using "fingernail polish ?" so be it. This forum has more than "Will" that are or were professionals .This Product that GHQ makes is MORE than just a hobby,its also a professional tool to some. I'm sorry that some posts here offend you,but if I can give an idea to some people like Will ,or others like him to help out I'm going to.
I've also reposted my picture. If anyone wants to view it PM me.