Spotting --Could the Warsaw Pact have beaten NATO?

[jb]

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:52 am Post subject:

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I decided to put this info on a thread of it's own,because we all wondered off of the initial subject of the parent thread. I hope nobody minds.

Pmaidhof stated

Timothy/John,
Spotting at long range is problematic. In a desert environment , I had the opportunity to run a quick demonstration for my platoon. We stationed one TOW vehicle to spot, and then tracked with both day and night sights two other vehicles that moved down range to 3,750m (2.2 miles). 3,750 was our max effective range.

While you could see it, and could confirm whether it was moving or not, I honestly could not tell if it was a HMMWV, and not some BRDM or other similar vehicle. Now obviously tanks are larger "targets", so it would not be as bad at that range, but then you get into identification whether friend or foe. The target HMMWV reported in that they had a tough time spotting us as we were stationary.

"It's a T-62. But is it an Iraqi T-62 or a Syrian T-62? Hey wait, the Syrians are our friends this time."

Shots are possible, but you'd better be sure of who you are shooting at.
_________________
S/F
Pete

In my spotting ranges I believe that 1800m is a very generous range for freind or foe identification. Like I mentioned earlier games need parameters to function by. Now some of the variations I add to that 1800m range would be if you engage the enemy at that range and they retreat, I allow your fire to continue at the enemy as long as you have the capabilities to fire at the range they are at. So if you have a gun system that is capable of fire to say 4000m then you may continue fire on the enemy while they are within this fire range. Of course they must be entirely in sight while extruding themselves from the forementioned 1800m initial range.
Another example of firng at enemy targets beyond this 1800m ForF range would be if you have friendly recon out there identifying the enemy. This could also conjour up a gray area too. If your recon force is composed of the same size or shape as the enemy a fraticide may occur,but then again a good recon would give precise map cooridinates to verify the enemy and themselves (hope they don't have a 2nd Lt that is bad at map reading) as I mentioned a grey area. These are just some examples of spotting rules and modifiers without screwing up a game with a lot of needless rolls.
Talking about fraticide does anybody have any good ideas about rules for fraticide?

[Timothy OConnor]

This raises the quesition of very long range ATGMs such as the Hellfire Long Bow.

The long bow has a nominal range of 8,000m. But this would seem to exceed the distance at which the Apache itself could spot targets,let alone figure out whether or not they're friendlies. Some ATGMs, including Russian, have ranges around 5000m which would seem to still be a challenge.

From a wargaming perspective it seems that to employ a weapon effectively 3000m to 4000m becomes the practical limit regardless of the weapon's capability simply because it becomes so difficult to spot and ID targets beyond that point (unless of course there's a spotter/designator closer to the target in the case of indirect fire and SALH missiles). So, even if my wargame unit is armed with an ATGM that can fire 5000m or 8000m it's still limited by the human factor (again, in the absence of a spotter/designator for IDF and SALH missiles repsectively).

[Timothy OConnor]

This discussion reminded of some stats in Dunnigan's book about modern war. So, I looked them up. Here's his take:

"World War II experience and German army tests found that, in nondesert areas, you will post a tank at 500m 40 percent of the time, 500-1,000m 25 percent of the time, 1,000-2,000m 20 percent, and over 2,000m 15 percent. Even in open areas, the longer-range posssibilities are compromised by tanks taking advantage of undulations in the ground or cover created by huge dust clouds generated by dry weather."

[jb]

This discussion reminded of some stats in Dunnigan's book about modern war. So, I looked them up. Here's his take:

"World War II experience and German army tests found that, in nondesert areas, you will post a tank at 500m 40 percent of the time, 500-1,000m 25 percent of the time, 1,000-2,000m 20 percent, and over 2,000m 15 percent. Even in open areas, the longer-range posssibilities are compromised by tanks taking advantage of undulations in the ground or cover created by huge dust clouds generated by dry weather."

...also the term "open" may be elusive. In areas of the desert no problem (most of the time),but on the European plains you have all the folds in the terrain in so called open areas too. Then consider brush here and there(this brush is almost never represented on wargame setups!). These factors may change percentage for spotting...
With all this and previous information said I think regardless of rule system a set for sure spotting distance should be set for each scenario. This would of course be agreed upon by both sides as to what it should be. In this fashion both sides could discuss the pertinent factors involved as to spotting without involving a lot of future rolls. Some of these factors could involve fog,time of day in the desert,weather in general etc.

[jb]

...With all this and previous information said I think regardless of rule system a set for sure spotting distance should be set for each scenario. This would of course be agreed upon by both sides as to what it should be. In this fashion both sides could discuss the pertinent factors involved as to spotting without involving a lot of future rolls. Some of these factors could involve fog,time of day in the desert,weather in general etc.

[BattlerBritain]

One thing about the Apaches 8000m range is that it fires out to that range indirectly, ie another Apache can spot for it. Usually you'll get a couple of Apache's spotting and a few Apaches behind a hill with all the ammo. The Longbow Apache also uses a millimetre wave radar (I think) and can ID targets at night or in bad weather. It can also hand off targets and 'manage its' battlespace' via datalinks in a similar fashion to an AWACS with Link16 tactical datalink handing off targets to a fighter with his radar switched off.

There is also the question of identifying targets in an environment where you know that anything to your front is enemy. This happened in WW2 and occurs in moderns and doesn't neccessarily require a tactical datalink. An example is a static defensive line. Hence you can say that 'If anything moves over there shoot it'.

Where spotting and identifying gets tricky is in a fluid battle situation. That's where your shorter ranges would come in I think.

[Timothy OConnor]

There is also the question of identifying targets in an environment where you know that anything to your front is enemy. This happened in WW2 and occurs in moderns and doesn't neccessarily require a tactical datalink. An example is a static defensive line. Hence you can say that 'If anything moves over there shoot it'.

That's precisely what happened at "Ambush Alley" in the Iraq War. Some A-10 pilots and a battalion FAC both assumed that anything north of a certain bridge were Iraqi, so the A-10s were cleared to attack. They killed and wounded a number of marines during the strafing runs.

In Afghanistan a number of Afghan allies were killed (and some of their US SpecOp minders were nearly killed) during Anaconda because it was assumed that only Taliban were operating in a given area.

In Vietnam a US tank platoon patroling the DMZ (very static!) nearly fired on what they thought was an enemy tank. At the last moment they realized it was an M-48. It turned out that it was a derelict from a previous battle but the platoon had no idea Americans had been fighting in that area.

And in the first Gulf War some US recon vehicles were shot to pieces because it was assumed that anything north of the US start lines were Iraqis. As it turns out, there happened to be some Iraqi tanks making a probe at that very point and the nervous US defenders fired at their fellow Americans because they assumed everyone else in the area was an Iraqi.

And Britain makes a good point about extreme range for ATGMs. A friend who had been in the Rangers also noted that infantry have served as designators for Apaches. In my own rules range/fire effectiveness (which merges spotting and firing) is based on the distance bewteen the target and the shooter/observer/designator. So, an Apache can stad off 8000m but the effect of its fire is based on the designator's range to the target.